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  • 47

Pilots Stood Down After Dispute in Cockpit

送信時刻:
 
QANTAS has stood down two pilots who had a heated argument in the cockpit of a Boeing 747 jumbo on the tarmac at Dallas' international airport. Just weeks after Qantas stood down a captain for returning a positive alcohol reading, it has emerged that another captain and a second officer on a 747-400 had an argument over the take-off calculations they should be punching into the passenger jet's computer system. (www.watoday.com.au) さらに...

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amahran
amahran 22
I'm actually more interested in the actual argument transcript than the fact that the flight was delayed and the pilots were stood down.

I'd love to imagine what exactly was being "debated"
Derg
Yes amahran..right on. As joe johnson noted on here "takeoff numbers". Quantas have a history of loading the machines to the edge of the margin. I hope the ATSB is invited to look into this event. In my view, given the evidence of the last 5 years, the management of this airline is questionable on day to day toutine necessities. Example: keeping a record of how much oil an engine is using. You are surprised? Oh yes...understandable.
TXCAVU
Well soon Singapore will be doing their maintenance.
hjfischer1
Roland- IMHO you have to do the book numbers to see what he airplane CAN do under ideal conditions- then, as with many other things,talk about it. Not anything near Balanced Field, do you take an engine fire flying because it happens at V1
+ 2 kts? Don't forget about that grey computer between your ears!
clipper759
Cruise Pilot, IRO,Second Officer. Whatever you call him, he is a pilot who is qualified on the B744 like everyone else on the flight deck.

@Stephen..
Yes. The Captain has complete authority. He is the PIC. That being said, any Captain worth a damn is always receptive to his crews' concerns. Why it degenerated to a shouting match is the question. We may never know the answer to that.
worldwisetrade
Where have you been for the past 20 years? Cockpit management is not with a god in control as in the 50's & 60's... when by the way airplanes were being routinely driven into the ground with a non pro-active ("co-pilot")first officer. Cockpit management is now is a crew concept, with clear delineation of duties, and with redundancy purposely built in. The "complete authority" is in cockpit science, hopefully with a captain that is a good manager of people, procedures and cockpit science. Anything that degrades to a heated argument is a complete failure and rests smack on the captain's shoulders! He should be fired.
toolguy105
@Robert, You hit the nail on the head. Debate yes, but debate to find out where a mistake in calculations were made. Not debate to the point that you almost come to blows. We are human and even Captains make mistakes, especially with mathematics.
hjfischer1
Robert, I hear what you are saying and generally agree. I was a co-pilot in the '60's and we didn't "routinely" drive airplanes into the ground... well, besides some of my less spectacular landings! Even back then the good Captains led their crews the way CLR recommends and the bad ones didn't change a lot after attending the class! From my observations, it was generally the weaker Captains who were the most authorotarian.
captainjman
The PIC has ultimate authority and responsibility - but that doesn't mean that the SIC is there to simply occupy a seat. Toolguy said the SIC can debate, but not to the point that "you almost come to blows." First of all, it takes two to tango. The PIC and SIC must have both been pretty argumentative for this situation to occur.

The SIC must speak up if he has a problem with what the PIC is doing. There is nothing wrong with this practice whatsoever... In fact, many accidents would never have happened if the SIC spoke up.. Such was the case with the two 747's in Tenarife. It was the broken communication, and the swollen ego of KLM's chief pilot that caused that accident. And there are many many more examples - I just figured I would discuss this one since it was the worst aviation accident of all time - and it was due to a lack of CRM in the cockpit.

I would rather hear of delayed or canceled flights ALL THE TIME rather than another crash. While we may never know what was the issue that day - if the SIC was standing his ground to the point of a heated argument - it most likely was a safety of flight issue. If the SIC thinks something is dangerous he MUST speak up. If he is not listened to, he should relieve himself of flying duties. A captain fudging numbers for instance would not have a leg to stand on if the SIC walked off the job, called in sick and the facts were to come out. I don't care what position you are, PIC, SIC, FE - if you feel someone will do an unsafe thing you must stop it. At least you will be alive.

As a captain I never once failed to listen to my SIC. The way I saw it, he was my redundancy and could be catching something that I have missed. I would always err on the side of caution - something all pilots should do - but they don't always. I flew with strong SIC's and weak SIC's - but you always listen to what they have to say. The PIC's extra experience comes in when a decision is made. But if the captain makes a decision that the SIC cant live with, he should call in sick. This does not happen on an everyday basis.

Flying for a regional carrier I was paired with a captain who was just served with divorce papers three hours before flying with me. As the SIC I felt that he was not safe to fly. He scoffed and yelled as we pushed back from the gate. He was rushing and making mistakes. I applied the parking break, undid my seat belt and walked off the plane. He was FORCED to listen to my concerns. He called in sick as a result... despite the fact that he was the PIC - the decision was not his to make. Either I would call in sick or he would. If I called in sick I would be called to the chief pilots office where I would be forced to tell them what really happened. If he called in sick he could control the conversation in the office. He chose the latter.

It is important not to confuse PIC responsibilities with the powers and responsibilities of the SIC. In many cases they are the last line of defense before an accident. In some cases the SIC causes an accident - even though the PIC has authority - the SIC can retract flaps at a critical moment such as a wind shear - and cause an accident. Both pilots are there for a reason- lets not forget that.
mhlansdell00
Whoa cowboy. The article didn't say all that. The article stopped short of saying what they were arguing about. Maybe they had both been drinking too close to push back. Don't know, can't say. It had to be serious though for both of them to be relieved.

By the way, it's hard to deplane after push back. Even the last trainer I was in needed a ladder that had been taken away. It's been a while since I exited an aircraft via the wing.
captainjman
Mark -

The CRJ (all versions) has a built in staircase on main door. All you have to do is open the door and the steps are built in. Im not sure if you were trying to say I was making up a story, or saying your plane is bigger than mine - but in either case - you have your answer.

I didn't read the article, what I was reading was the comments on this forum, and responding the to handful of things I saw that needed to be addressed. I believe that those who are interested in aviation would find the information I put on here very informative and interesting. And clear up the misconception about the POWER of the PIC over his crew.

And in once case, Even set one guy straight who sounded way too much like a right seat captain. Something that is a real pain in the ass for the captains he will/is flying with. If the way he wrote it was by accident that would be one thing, but if in fact he meant it, trust me, the captains he is flying with will thank me for making him think about himself critically going forward.

Like yourself I use my real name - I don't believe in hiding behind a computer screen. I have 22 years of aviation experience and I am willing to share what little knowledge I have openly ;). If there was something I offended you with, please let me know - perhaps I wrote something that was taken the wrong way. If I owe you an apology for something - let me know. I actually said in my third paragraph second sentence "we may never know what was the issue that day" - but I gave the readers of this forum some information as to what it could be - and why the SIC is not just occupying a seat - and that despite the PIC's ultimate responsibility for the flight - the SIC can do things if necessary. I then gave some examples. Thats all.

Let me know If I owe you an apology

Jason
mhlansdell00
@ Jason:
You owe me nothing. Your opinion and point of view are yours and therefore sacred. A bunch of us, sounds like you too, have risked life and limb to make sure of that. I didn't see a reference to a CRJ in your, may I call it rant, and it's been a while since I deplaned with air stairs. The size of my airplane or what ever has little to do with talent, knowledge or the ability to apply both
quickly. All that said I presumed, since this is a discussion about the article written that you were commenting on the article you read. There are dangers in commenting on opinions with no or different basis than the article. It starts an entire new thread of discussion. There are enough topics from the writing.

You are touching on legal and moral issues with your comments. I asked the question in another post does the FO have the right indeed the responsibility to legally wrench command from the PIC at times? Since so much of aviation law is based on maritime law I suspect yes, but I don't know without a doubt. That part of the FAR's has specific case interest. The days of absolute authority began to wane at Tenerife. Arrogance and one man's concerns can't be allowed to control the destinies of so many other people yet discipline has it's place and necessity as well.

Again, the situation must have been serious, either legally or from a company PR point of view to stand down, strange turn of phrase, both the PIC and the FO or SIC, as you term it. It's not an inexpensive change for the company and they would not have done it on a whim. But the article was not well written and maybe should never have been published.

No offense taken. If I were thin skinned I would use a screen name.
captainjman
The FAR's have nothing regarding mutiny. It is not a subject that is addressed. The only discussion that I have ever seen was that if the captain becomes incapacitated the FO is to secure the captain away from the controls and as a result becomes the new Captain for the duration of the flight.

There are times however that FO's have taken command of an aircraft and relieved the captain of their command with the help of the rest of the crew. There was a recent situation in the US when the captain started saying weird comments such as - I hope you understand what I am about to do is for Jesus" - the captain was going to crash the plane - the crew removed and subdued the captain and the FO took over - as he should have. Clearly there was no grey area there. It is in these Non grey areas that an FO can take command of an aircraft.

There is an example of an FO attempting mutiny that ended in pure comedy. A new FO and a check airman were doing the new FO's IOE (initial operating experience) - and the captain briefed the category 2 approach to lower than standard minimums. The FO said "I'm going on the record that a DA of less than 200 feet is unsafe". The training captain reminded the FO that it was taught in ground school, in the simulator and they have approval by the FAA to fly CAT2 approaches. The FO. Then said " by the powers vested in me by the FAA - I hereby relieve you of command sir". The training captain shot the approach as briefed - and they landed at their home base (I forgot where it was). They walked into the chief pilots office and was fired for being a comete idiot. What did he think he was - an ordained minister at a wedding? "by the power vested in me?". Lol. This is an example of what not to do! Lol
mhlansdell00
As I figured. Te maritime model us valid. I never thought about mutiny, but actually it is addressed, but as an issue when a aircraft is being hijacked, so somewhat disguised.

There is a lot to consider when usurping the PIC or any commander. First is who is going to perform the duties that you are abandoning. I'm not typed in a CRJ but I'm not sure I'd want to find myself on short final in a 737 or a C130 without a qualified assistant for lack of a better word. The front office is wide enough that I can't reach enough switches to "turn the motors on" never mind change some of the displays. Of course maybe the prettiest FA could be enlisted like in the movies. Gimme back my DC3
worldwisetrade
Thanks Herb. The point on the "routinely" was that the accident rate was exponentially higher prior to the implementation of "CRM" (cockpit resource management), the science put into play in the 70's & 80's. That was the theoretical end to the god mentality in the left seat (which I too endured), and a implementation of a crew concept. Of course we now have an incredibly safe mode of transportation and with far fewer accidents and incidents than pre-CRM.

As a mainline captain for 20 years, I can't imagine things degrading to the point of an argument. This is really engineered out of the flows. IF however this were to happen, as a captain, F/O, pr S/0, it would be time to insist on returning to the gate!
jmilleratp
Questions should clearly have been asked by the subordinate pilots of Air France 447. Just because you are Captain doesn't mean you should be in that seat. As an Airline Captain myself, I have run into too many left seaters who shouldn't be there.
captainjman
If you have run into "too many left seaters who shouldn't be there" perhaps it is you that has a problem. If you ran into one or two- thats one thing. If you are in the training department thats also understandable. But if you were in the right seat and ran into captain after captain that were not as good as you, and who shouldn't be in the left seat.... if you kept having problems with many captains - you may want to look in the mirror.

Maybe it just came out wrong? If so, please clarify... but that comment you made is classic example of a right seat captain - which is NOT a good thing!
mhlansdell00
Hmmm there were three qualified pilots on that flight. The pic had 4 minutes to wake up, get his head around the problem change any poor decisions, start a new course of action, and fly out of trouble. As I understand it his number one was pulling back in the stick to get out of a stall, and his number two was pushing a stick that was locked out of the computer system. I'm not sure any of them understood the flight systems well enough to be transporting passengers, including the PIC.
laxlover

rebelx4xchrist
Don't they share authority so if the captain was doing something dangerous the Second or First Officer or whoever is there has the authority to take control?
mhlansdell00
Not to be confrontational but that's hardly shared authority. While I'm not positive and have never come up against the rule, I believe the first officer has the right, in fact the responsibility to "relieve" the PIC under certain circumstances. Politically, he better be on very firm ground and have a plan to fly the airplane as a single pilot. Again, I'm not sure about this. That's the way it is in maritime law and aviation shadowed maritime laws for the most part. Wayne probably has a better handle on the topic. It's just something I haven't had any experience in.
EPETRU
ES PE -1
They were fighting over a woman

[This comment has been downvoted. Show anyway.]

Derg
William...do some research please. Thanks.
hiflier32
ric lang 1
HUH? A744 is a short range, hi capacity version of a 747 used for short segments hauling a lot of passengers....no winglets lots of gas, lots of seats
hjfischer1
I don't think so,Rick! My Rating says 747-4... I was mistaken on a past post. I got the Rating like 23 years ago. I know the airplane you are talking about, but I don't think it is a separate Rating. As far as I know, the two (400) and three (100- 200- SP) Pilot 74's are separate types. Don't know about the 300. No American Carriers bought it so it wasn't an issue
TXCAVU
There is no "other" rating for the 74...only extra tanks. Hence the range capability.
hjfischer1
Just to clarify, Elizabeth.... the 100/200/SP are one type and the 400 is a separate type. Don't know if other licensing authorities have a separate type for the 300. For example, I am Rated on the 400... 747-4... but would have to go through separate type training to fly the 3 Pilot 74's
dud1
dud1 1
B744 is an abbreviation for B747-400.
hjfischer1
That's what the Rating on my ATP says...
Jeffhjr
744 is an easier way of saying 747-400 just a 737-300 is the same as 733.
clipper759
It says the argument was over "Takeoff calculations". Hard to say. But whatever it was the Second Officer felt strongly enough about it to take it as far as he did.
Derg
Maybe a fight over one of the women attendants?
faborange
What a stupid macho comment from another dinosaur...
hjfischer1
Hey, Ro! from one dinosaur to another.... as long as it was about something THAT important! I guess if we wanted to be Politically Correct we could surmise that they were fighting over a Male FA!
mjsracing1
As a co-pilot on a corporate level, I have the responsibility to be correct in my calculations. But, both myself AND the PIC have caught each others mistakes on occasion. This is why we double check each other. We are not shouting at each other, or "impaired" by any substance. But he and I agree we are human and do make mistakes. If a mistake is loaded into the FMC, our aircraft will fly it.......or try to. That is why we check each other and then BOTH OF US confirm aircraft config. It is unfortunate that this incident happened, but is a rude awakening to what may have happened if a mistake had gone unnoticed. A bad day could have been much worse.
mhlansdell00
Most pilots and professionals have a mutual respect, but there are the arrogant among us in every profession.
gopurduego
Would rather read an article like this than an article about a 747 failing to takeoff successfully because of weight and balance or other issues. Without knowing what was said, it seems to me it's GOOD that this can happen, and hopefully neither will face any discipline. (unless of course it emerges that it was something silly)
SootBox
SootBox 7
One of the pilots was heard to say "That's not a knife.... THIS, is a knife".
450kts
This does not happen often, and can be very personal. I suggest a review of some basic CRM techniques,and a chat with the Fleet Chief Pilot. There can be a few hidden issues between these guys that needs to be looked into. A darker shade of blue can emerge out of this as we see hidden in many major airlines. I have captained big jets for 4 major airlines the last 22 years. Unchecked bad Crew Resource Management will lead to accidents, sooner or later, without exception! Shape up guys!
hjfischer1
Well said, Lars! Only thing I would add is that unchecked CLR in either direction is dangerous. Even if he F/O has a better plan, in a time critical situation there is no time to have a CLR session. Even if the Captain's plan isn't perfect, he has the crew going in the same direction. I generalized before that the good Captains were already using CRM and the bad ones ignored it. I'll generalize further that the F/O's who feel it is their responsibility to confront the Captiain over every minor issue are usually the less experienced.
mhlansdell00
There isn't enough information here to make that call.I don't know from the article if they were arguing over the current calculations, the latest contract proposal or last night's football game plan, or the unthinkable violating the 12 hour rule. Were they taken off flight status because there was a danger or because passengers and cabin crew were listening to a litany of personal crap. The article stops short of those details and the author didn't research farther. Because they were both stood down, I suspect there was a safety issue or it was a repeat offence. Neither speaks well of management.
450kts
CRM is embedded in every multi-crew work on the Flight Dck! To resolve a human conflict is what we are expected to be able to do in an orderly and professional fashion as ATPL holders. What more information do you need if there in fact was an argument that caused them to be stood down? If a crew is unable to co-operate, its members are not fit for flight!
planefreak
This is how the argument went down: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzwWGPDkSqw
Melb3049
Hilarious youtube vid. LMAO
AABABY
AABABY 2
Are we there yet? Mom! He's touching me! You're on my side!
If you 2 don't behave I'm going to make you walk the rest of the way!
Good grief!
TXCAVU
I monitored that (non)flight and the skinny is as Joe Johnson said...take off calculations and the Captains refusal to either let the Co Pilot do his job or to call it in and let dispatch make the call. By the time it did get called in, flight crew was over their limit and went back to the hotel. As for the passengers...they were deplaned and left there until 1am. No luggage, no basic toiletries and no apologies. They were told it was weather related which turned into flight crew over hours. You can imagine how pissed they were when they arrived in Brisbane and saw the news of a cockpit argument.
Moviela
What was the centre of the argument? English v. Metric units? Zulu v. Local v. Destination time? Most likely is a sticky wicket clouding a heated cricket match.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 1
No sticky wicket, just an LBW...
Derg
Estwing geology hammers in the hold...
toolguy105
The story is the pilots disagreed on the calculations for take-off. These calculations are very important considering the aircraft is operating at the very edge of its envelope. I wonder had there not been a thunderstorm would the plane had left as scheduled and who's calculations would have been used. I believe this is the real story.

In today's aircraft with their advanced avionics it is extremely important that all calculations are checked, double checked and checked again before inputting into the flight management system. There should not have been an argument, instead the two pilots should have worked together to find where a mistake was made,by one of them or dispatch. Qantas was correct to stand them down.
hjfischer1
Guys, are we missing the most pertinent point here? 300+ ordinary citizens got from the Republic of Texas to Australia in one piece, if a little late. We don't know the details, but two professional aviators disagreed to the point that one or both were willing to put their careers on the line to protect their passengers. That's the way it has to be or we are Tradesmen instead of Professionals and not worthy of the trust of our passengers.

One guy might be completely wrong and another completely right- we'll see- but even that doesn't matter. What matters is our protection of these guys' right to do exactly what they did. That is a critical- no, a crucial- part of ensuring safety for our Pax.

We are the only people in the Industry who are unwilling to buy "statistically acceptable" compromises in safety- no matter what the numbers say, we are at the pointed end of the stick.

I'm 75 with over 50 years in the Cockpit- General, USAF, 121, Buisness Jet- and ovber 30,000 in the Cockpit
WALLACE24
Don't know who heard all this shouting, but I bet it was a little disconcerting........
Derg
Not for the Aussies James...they got the highest male assault rate in wesretn society..that day must have been mainly non Aussies back there..if it was an all male list there would have been free for all...beer or no beer..I like the Aussies..my kind of men..nvt met any of the wimmen.
faborange
Roland,
Quit while you're ahead.
Really...
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 3
Oh! Has he ever been ahead?
WALLACE24
Those blokes are a fiesty lot!!!lol
tisom2
I need clearance, Clarence. Roger, Rodger.
Derg
Well he obviously was not called Nigel. Nigel would have had him in the closet for a private chat.
HunterTS4
Toby Sharp -1
What's your Vector Victor?
dmaccarter
Sounds like someone needs some CRM refresher time.
mhlansdell00
Yea. Check with United for that.
devsfan
Is it any wonder why the consensus is that air travel sucks.
mhlansdell00
Even the flight crew can't agree.
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
When you consider this is one flight out of approximately 87,000 flights per day in the United States alone, yes, it boggles my mind that there is a consensus that air travel sucks.
devsfan
Well Donna, read the news. look at the stats released by the federal govt regarding customer satisfaction. Test your research skills by searching for stories on the TSA.
Go to the airport and witness the hassles travelers must endure just to get through security. The excuses air carriers use to cancel flights. Lost baggage, delays, unsanitary aircraft, etc.
Air carrier employee, are ya?
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
My opinion stands. And it stands, without giving in to my impulse to mirror your insolence. I'm entitled, am I not?
WALLACE24
There was a time when riding the train was a great expierence. Sound familiar? History always repeats.
AABABY
AABABY 1
Still is. See remark above.
WALLACE24
Just like trains didn't go away neither will the airlines. The carriers will have to find their neiche. Most will still suck and a few will flourish. Just like trains. They are not all a good expierence.
AABABY
AABABY 1
I'm reading this on a TRAIN! Smooth, comfy, quiet!
smoki
smoki 1
Sounds like Qantas is in need of some Crew Resource Management training. Captains who exert their authority on the flight deck to the point that they get into a heated argument with another fight deck crewmember over operational procedures need to be reevaluated for that position. There's no adequate excuse for it, period. And to be told that the Captain is too busy to speak to passengers who were made to sit on the ramp for 2 hours is way out of bounds. To top it all off, when the pax finally did get off the plane after the delay for weather and crew duty time limits, the company's response to the situation insofar as arranging accomodations for their overnight stay sounded like something Mo, Larry and Curly of the Three Stooges could have handled better. Definitely not a good day for Qantas.
Doobs
Well said, Jason.
Dee
Ret. F/A of 30yrs
Private/IFR Rating
"(Crew) Resource Management" Qualified
chalet
chalet 1
Given the high number of entries and different takes, can it be construed as if altercations or milder confrontations between captains and co-pilots (never liked the PIC and SIC terminology) is something far more common than the general public is aware of.
marjorie1959
The numbers weren't the problem apparently, alcohol on pilot should be grounded
mhlansdell00
Is there a new article out on this? I'd like to read it rather than suppose. Please cite a source. Thanks.
Doobs
No Mark, I think Marjorie was referring to the incident in which a Qantas pilot was removed from a 767-300 in Sydney when she tested positive for alcohol. The incident occurred prior to a flight from Sydney to Brisbane, a couple weeks before the situation between the two Crew Members in Dallas. This is not related to the article that was presented to the Forum.
RAYDRSR1
Although the Captain is the PIC we've been operating with a program referred to as "CRM" (COCKPIT RESOURCE MANAGEMENT)for several years now in both FAR121 and FAR135 operations.
If there happens to be some problem with the takeoff calculations between the two pilots (who may both be rated Captains in that aircraft)it's not a bad idea to bring the Certfied Aircraft Dispatcher into the discussion to finally settle any disputes on just what final calculations are correct.
In the interest of safety,under CRM all cockpit flight crew members are to have input on the safe operation of any flight.
samrawlings1212
Well, It is pretty crucial those numbers. I wonder who was right and who won the argument.
Pileits
Pileits 1
I thought 2nd Officers went extinct when 3 man cockpit airplanes went to the scrap yard.
tyketto
There are two sets of crew on flights of that length. There's no way a single captain and FO could fly that run for 17+ hours. They'd go over their time limit for being on duty.
Derg
Yea Brad..I would love to know the TOW and air temp on that day.
Doobs
Correction, Mark. Trust me you don't want to "GO" there! ( wing exit ) I don't even want to have an image of an "wing evac" on a A-380! Scarey Daddy!
mhlansdell00
Wing exit from an A-380? Huh? Never referred to that. Don't get in with a ladder either.
Mudshark
Maybe it will be published in Callback.
hjfischer1
I've been on both sides of this.... I have walked off an airplane as an F/O and told a F/O that, if he didn't like what I was doing, he could leave and we would talk to the Chief Pilot about it. In both of these cases I was absolutely certain that I was right. In many more cases, CLR (CRM, whatever) prevailed and discussion with the other crewmembers, with mx, wx, dispatch came up with a better plan than any of us had individually. Like it or not, someone has to be in charge and ultimately responsible.
RSBOYLE
KLM FLT 4805 departing Tenerife in 1977 should remain a stark reminder of the risk when the CRM environment breaks down. KLM developed and introduced the 'flat cockpit' concept as a result of this tragedy that was easily avoidable. Any crew member can call for an abort, missed approach, or go around etc. Better to be safe than sorry.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenerife_airport_disaster
hjfischer1
Ricki, that is the key! If there is a disagreement, take the safest course of action until there is time to gather data and sort it out!
chalet
chalet 1
In the Far East due to their culture of respecting higher echelons copilots do not always dare to challenge the boss about a possible mistake for that would be worse than insulting him. A case in point a Japan Airlines DC-8-62 crashed shortly after taking off from Sheremetyevo airport in Moscow in 1972 and it was attibutable to this attitude. There might be more.
Doobs
Ric...Don't know what aircraft you're looking at but the B-747-400 is the best selling model of the "747" family! "Winglets"?? She happens to have 6 foot winglets mounted on 6 foot wing tip extensions. The B-747-800 will take over where the 400 left off...more economical and advanced!
ikiyasui
I know 3/4 of 5/8 of SFA about flying an aircraft but I see nothing wrong with healthy debate when it comes to safety. Too bad the number 2 didn't get vocal with his captain way back when at Tenerife.
suchet
It is very bad precedent and it needs very strict action. Imagine an incident in India where the Captain and the CoPilot were not in talking terms with each other resulting in landing at Calcutta airport with out under carriage. The aircraft scratched the run way but no major fire. Both the Pilots were terminated with disgrace
Doobs
You Donna. You posted that differences make the world go 'round. Well..it's those same differences that are going to destroy "Mother Earth"! It's happening right now. Now back to the subject. Are you a Pilot? A part of the Flight Crew? Do you know the intense training that goes on with Flight Crews? All I know is that you worked with "Rockets". Flight Crews have a complex communication. You seem to know everything about everything. Flight Crews are there to get you from point "A" to point "B" without mishap. I'm pleased that the Qantas Cockpit Crew were grounded! Obviously, they were not on the same page!
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
Dee; I'm sorry that you feel all differences are bad. Change is essential, Dee, stagnation destroys. To answer your pointed questions, no, I'm not a pilot. No, I'm not a part of the flight crew. I imagine in your mind that means I know nothing about which I speak. Do I know the intense training that goes on? Indeed I do. My work in Labor Relations for a major airline negotiating contracts for you flight attendants, pilots, mechanics, baggage handlers, rampers, etc., was quite the education. So, yes, I'm intimately aware of what training goes on - I know the contracts inside and out. I know what can and cannot be done. Why do you take exception with things that most people say? It's you who talks as though you "know everything about everything." Now can you just stop your petty squabbles and the holier than thou attitude? I'm writing what I've experienced. Everyone, including you, writes based on their experiences, their thoughts, their feelings, what they've been told and what they've read.. Good lord Dee, if my posts disturb you so deeply, stop reading them. This forum isn't the place for such nonsense.
Doobs
Donna, I enjoy reading your posts. Whether they make sense or not, I find them very entertaining.
captainjman
I have served as a contract negotiator - and have been a pilot for 22 years - and find that having knowledge of one does not give you insight of the other. Even if you were a pilot of a single pilot aircraft you will not understand the workload, thought processes, demands etc etc of a multi-pilot crew. Sorry. Not I am not saying that you can't participate in these forums - but you should not consider yourself an expert - or think you got it all figured out either. Hell, after 22 years in the cockpit I don't have it all figured out - and if I thought I did I shouldn't be part of a multi-pilot crew. If I were you I would write posts from a more humble perspective. As for the other comments - I have no opinion. I think too many people think they know something when all to often they don't. If you're not a pilot you can't possibly know exactly what we are talking about - but I'm not saying you shouldn't chime in your two cents worth - but do so from a perspective and attitude that you are an aviation hobbyist. Like I said - I didn't have a problem with your other comments that I saw - even though I wasn't sure what you meant exactly. But I didn't care either. I only had an opinion on your comment that because you helped negotiate a contract that you know what it's like to live and breathe CRM , which Is serious balogna. No offence. I would like to know what the issue was exactly - but I can only imagine that their running out of time was a major factor. They may not have had enough time to have a dispatcher run the numbers. "standing down" is not a term I have heard used in the US in the same way. I bet there was one hell of a carpet dance for all this. However, if these pilots have a lot of experience I would hate to see a single situation end their tenure at quantas. The company will want to keep a lid on the details so we may never learn the full story. But however you see it - I'd rather see a hundred arguments than a single crash!
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
Envision my cheeks bulging with humble pie. I know nothing, my opinions are worthless. Out.
captainjman
I was not trying to make you blush - or to make you feel like you need to be made humble... I was not trying to offend you. But I was trying to let you know that unless you have been part of a multi-pilot crew, you really don't know what its like. But that being said - I hope you do chime in on topics you find interesting. This site is a great way for aviation enthusiasts to discuss things with pilots, management, etc etc. I hope you are less embarrassed and maybe appreciate that there is a lot you don't know about - and I for one am honored that you have interest in learning. I learn a lot on here myself. The day you stop learning in aviation is the day it kills you. If I have offended you - I am truly sorry. Please accept my apology if this is the case.
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
Mr. Feldman, you don't make me blush. However, I am somewhat offended that you believe I don't understand English. How can you turn around and say you weren't trying to make me feel like I need to be made humble...when that's exactly, word for word, what you did say. I'd be the last one to claim to being an expert, I'm writing what I've experienced. If my writing style isn't to your liking, honestly that isn't my problem.
captainjman
You know what - ignore my apology, you don't deserve it. I agree with Dee Lowry's comment below! I don't have time for your ramblings - cya
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
I'm about to make your day. I won't return to the forum.
AABABY
AABABY 1
Your opinions are worthwhile. Don't lose your cool.
Doobs
Or destroy it.
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
Dee, who / what are your posts responding to?
FL1GHTtracking
August 8, 2012


Distracted Qantas pilots mucked up programming their Airbus A380 cockpit computers and only realised they did so as they hurtled down a Los Angeles airport runway, air safety investigators have found.


Read more: http://www.watoday.com.au/travel/travel-incidents/superjumbo-slipup-due-to-programming-error-inquiry-told-20120808-23u4o.html
Doobs
Oh Man...this is a given. If I witnessed this argument between the Cockpit Crew, I as a flight crew member would have called "Flight Ops" and have walked, just to protect my own &$% and the passengers onboard! Never in 30 years as a part of a Flight Crew have experienced this behavior!
Unbelieveable!
mhlansdell00
It seems to me that it must have been a pretty serious issue for the company to stand down both PIC and first officer. My imagination runs wild with different scenarios and topics for the argument. We'll probably never know what the actual cause of the stand down was unless civil authorities get involved.
JamesMills
I had a friend in first class, upperdeck, He said the arguement was over how to pronounce RODEO. Row D oh, not Row day oh!
Bloody Aussies wanted to sound like John Wayne.
WALLACE24
One is an event, one is a street. Apparantly one may be an intersection, and the controller probably has his own pronunciation.
SeaKnightcrew
If there is a disagreement on performance figures, best to leave the aircraft on the ground, not take a problem in the air.
I worked DC8, B727 as a F/E and Pilot. One DC8 I know had that problem and tried a takeoff which wound up destroying the airplane. Lucky all aboard got out.
egnilk66
egnilk66 1
Kath and Kel Knight could have sorted it out!!
ricmech23
Can't we all just get along?
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
not if you live on planet Earth. differences of opinion is what makes this glorious land of ours go 'round.
WALLACE24
Only in Utopia!
AWAAlum
AWAAlum 1
It' entirely possible that had there been no dispute that craft could have met with disaster.
BluegrassFlyer
I'm trying to think of what term would be used to describe this scene playing out in a Foster's commercial.
Derg
This would make a hell of a Fosters XXXX commercial..well noted...haha
wdhearrell
Too much Fosters before the flight?
SeaKnightcrew
Actually Foster's is sent here for us drink thinking we are Aussie. Aussies drink Victoria which is the good stuff...
Jeffhjr
Do it by the book and there should be no problems. Right????
Doobs
Mark...trust me you don't want to there! ( wing exit )
noragise
IS NECECESARY INCREASE CRM COURSE AS SOON AS POSSIBLE
laxlover
Doesn't captain have authority?
rebelx4xchrist
That kind of attitude is what caused two 747's to collide on a runway at Tenerife. They share authority, we have no idea what the issue was, it could turn out that the Captain was wrong and the Second Officer was arguing with him because of that...
Derg
Of course he does....but my guess is the boss was intimidated so many times by the company that he lost his cool...there are some deep problems here..tip of an iceberg with Qantas...in my view.
laxlover
Thanks for explaining.
Derg
But that is my opinion only...so don't take too much notice..
bpolin
Good thing I fly Delta to OZ. Their Airline, never even picks up the phone, to make a reservation. That's one country w/great people that's easy to get into but near impossible to get out of without a prior reservation. Forget about Qantas ever answering their phones. Was on hold for 90 minutes and then got disconnected. This happened three times--twice in San Diego, and once from Sydney. What a waste of time, and a poor show for a great country like Australia. This story doesn't surprise me. Wonder if their mateys in reservations aren't in worse shape. The only good thing about them is their A-380's instead of the cramped 777's from Delta.
ricmech23
Just maybe if they had a woman in the cockpit with them like the pilots from Kingfisher they would not have been arguing..... Well they would have probably upset one of cabin crew members. Can't please everyone?
Iewiew
Unions dictating who is in the left seat. Qualifications trumped by Union seniority.
Caps8
(Duplicate Squawk Submitted)

Qantas Pilots Grounded After Argument

Two pilots were grounded for arguing in the cockpit of a 747-400 on its way back to Australia from Dallas.

http://www.theage.com.au/travel/travel-incidents/pilots-stood-down-after-dispute-in-cockpit-20120820-24inx.html
RobSJC
Maybe they were not in agreeement about who did the take off and who did the landing, or when to use auto pilot, who gets te first nap ... the list is endless
EPETRU
ES PE -1
could they have been fighting over a woman?
mouha
loool qantas diverted an aircraft from lax because of this fight
TXCAVU
Hadn't heard that one. Is that where they got their relief crew?

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