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bbabis
bbabis 10
It was not a usual flight. It was an empty positioning flight and unusual things have a better chance of happening in that situation. I do not know the pilot histories but often on flights like this the senior pilot has the discretion to let the junior pilot fly the leg if they are not qualified co-captains. This can result in someone talking on the radio who does not normally handle that responsibility and someone flying that is basically getting a lesson causing radio calls to be missed and student mistakes such as over banking to be made. TEB on this day may not have been the best use of discretion. If the CVR has useful information it will shed much light on this tragedy.
FirstOfficerKrupke
https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20170515X80533&AKey=1&RType=Prelim&IType=FA
HighFlight
I fly this profile into TEB often. Several observations:

It is not altogether unusual to get a bit inside the Torby / FAF before starting the right circling manuever. Circling mins for the Lear list at 2 1/4 miles. Torby is at 3.8 miles.

Giving a lower time SIC the chance to fly an empty leg is quite standard. Agreed, that the WX this day into TEB wasn't optimal for such, however, we don't know the skill sets of the SIC nor what the PIC had witnessed him fly through in the past.

Sounds like an accelerated stall that was exacerbated by wind shear and over banking. As memory serves, the Lear 35 series forbids the use of the spoilerons with flaps selected as a no-no, which is why most crew have learned to wait till stabilized and wings level to fully configure full flaps.

Did this crew 1) wait a bit too far to start the circle causing them to have to try to "tighten the circle" when TEB ATC queried them? + 2) configure full flaps a bit too early while still in turn and/or 3) lose required level of roll control due to deploying spoilerons with flaps?

Full flaps 40 causes a noticeable drag and slow down of the LR-35. N1 has to be set between 60-80% during landing with full 40 flaps to prevent stalling. If you are flying fast and you deploy full flaps, the jet will have a serious pitch behavior.

Lots of airmanship questions on this one. Very sad.
MikeMohle
Also, assuming the SIC was flying from the right seat, that is a tougher visual picture during the circling procedure especially when making the left turn to line up with 01.
HighFlight
Good point Mike.
bcanderson
I break it off crossing TORBY if visual conditions are good. But apparently this guy just kept on going down the ILS? So assuming he's on the glideslope he's going to be at 1009 AGL at 3 mi. out, 757 AGL at 2.25 out (Cat C circling minimum), 673 AGL at 2.0 mi. out, and 336 1.0 mi. out.

The report says "Radar track data indicated that the flight did not start its right circling turn until it was less than 1 mile from the approach end of runway 6."

So (and again, assuming he's on the glideslope) that means he would have been roughly 300 ft. AGL or less when he started his maneuver? Wow.

BTW not to nit-pick, but while spoilers are a no-no with flaps extended, spoilerons are not. In fact the spoilerons aren't even active until full flaps are selected and the 25 degree switch is made. But it shouldn't have been a factor as circling configuration in the 35 is Flaps 20 and Vref+20.
Highflyer1950
I think you mean no spoilers with flap deployment. If I dig into my memory deep enough, I believe that the roll control actually increases substancially with app or landing flap set. Even at gross weight pretty much any lear will circle just fine with landing flap unless you are single engine, then of course you would be guided by the flight manual procedures. This should have been a pre briefed approach no matter who was flying and for the sake of argument, if ATC is busy, don't sweat it because they know you are coming because app control has handed you off. They "willl call you", just fly the approach.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 1
You're right. I've been out of the Lear for almost 2 years, but she'll circle just fine at full flaps with 2 engines...
gamage2
gamage2 1
After several "Problems" shooting cir apps, my jet charter company decided to just say no more circ apps...job done!
ah6oy
Crashes like this where pilot error can be used as a cause hurt. Even a missed observation on a walk around can be laid to pilot error. I'm thinking it's more of a training error seeing more and more pilots progress in high performance aircrafts without having an upbringing in hands on piloting during approaches. Not having the expertise of instrument scans while flying a common or tricky approach to get things right can always be called pilot error when it's roots are in training that isn't there as a requirement so is skipped. Maybe at least have cheaper flight simulators to run pilots through non automated hands on approaches for training since the actual in plane trainings are most likely skipped due to the costs of pilots and aircraft times for actual hands on training. I'm certain it can sound silly but given this crash will be called pilot error when they didn't have the expertise to error from sounds silly to me.
PLANESOLUTIONS
Anyone with experience flying in to TEB knows that it can take quite a while for an opportunity to check in with a frequency change. The fact that they flew 5 miles before checking in (while a little long)should not be remarkable. Additionally, without hearing the approach and tower transcripts it's impossible to say if they were on an assigned heading or on their own navigation.
MikeMohle
Just trying to get a word in to check on with ATC at all takes time at TEB.
bbabis
bbabis 1
That is very true but not the case here. The unedited tapes are posted on an earlier squawk. There was very little freq congestion and much dead air before tower decided to call the lear. They then had to be reminded to circle. It almost seams that if tower hadn't said anything they would have landed straight in 06, something they should have thought about requesting that late in the approach instead of crank and bank.
Dubslow
Dubslow 0
Sounds like the high bank angle and probably other factors (one would also assume low airspeed) caused a stall, i.e. the wobbling reported by observers.

Given the statements about delays in ATC comms and maneuvering, it sounds like they were either playing a video game while flying or severely overworked by something or other. Doesn't really look good for the pilots either way...
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 2
You're right, the "A" game definitely wasn't here.
Flight plan filed for FL270 for the 50 mile leg from PHL.
As much as it hurts, pilot error seems to be the case...
RIP!!!
w5thompson
Should we not just wait until the report is finalized?
fedexman2
My thoughts exactly!

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