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767 35-Knot Crosswind Landing

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What happens when 120 tonnes of landing Boeing 767 encounters severe turbulence just above the runway (15 at BHX). Just watch the wheels bouncing in all directions under the shear forces. Very reassuring that the undercarriage can take this sort of punishment without blowing itself to pieces. (www.youtube.com) さらに...

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magicelle78
Whoa that slow-mo!!! Really emphasises the punishment! Nice landing btw, skilled pilots **hats off**.
bobbyroe
That's a terrific video, and it's amazing to think the tires and gear can handle that level of abuse.

The pilot's skill for this landing, on the other hand, is atrocious -- my opinion, of course. Flying a crab on final is almost always the most comfortable for both passengers and pilots, but expecting the gear to handle touchdown like that is unrealistic. Instead, get the upwind wing down and cross-control with rudder to maintain longitudinal alignment for the aircraft's direction (runway direction, essentially) and the aircraft's longitudinal axis. It's basic technique taught in primary instruction.
preacher1
You might get that wing down some, but not much, and you are correct in that it is taught as a basic technique but as low as the ground clearance is between engine/ground on the heavy twins, it just ain't possible to get a lot of it without a pod scrape. All those clearances vary some per the individual AC type, but by and large, wing down as a salvation is not a factor, although it must be used some, there is not that much emphasis on it in heavy training anymore. You will note, though maybe you can't see it good on the video, the right wing was down some, as the starboard gear impacted first. Personally, if that crosswind dumped in at 35k, I think the pilot did a fine job.
mldavis2
Impressive. Note that although the main gear is off-center, the nosewheel is almost perfectly on the center line of the runway on touchdown. That is an excellent example of a master pilot.
muchmanning
Er, no. The idea is to put the main wheels on the centreline. If you land a long a/c like a 747-400 or a 777-300 in a crosswind and the nose wheel is on the centreline, then the main gear can be very close to the edge of the runway. Certainly that was the way my old airline used to teach it and I'd be surprised if any others were that different. It seemed a bit strange initially, but after a while it became second nature to adjust the distance from the centreline that you aimed to touchdown depending on the severity of the crosswind. And in the 777 you didn't need to kick it straight as the gear could take landing with drift on. If you don't believe me, check out the videos of the 777 crosswind landing trials in New Mexico. Regards.
preacher1
Of course you could always fly a BUFF, where the gear was separate and you lined it up on the runway heading (centerline) and cranked the rest of the crab into the plane. LOL. Had a BUFF driver tell me one time that you could have a 45degree split there. Talk about a pucker factor. Of course that big tail would catch every breeze in the country.LOL
PWFan
Those are the moments of shear stress.
ilikerio
ilikerio 3
Holy crap!!! WOW!
moose061970
This person is one super Pilot. I would fly with him almost anywhere.
Shenandoah
To be perfectly frank, that was a shitty X-wind technique demonstrated on this vid. X-wind from the right. The crab should have been totally eliminated at point of touchdown by using aileron into the wind and rudder to straighten the A/C longitudinally to the centerline of the runway. After touchdown, aileron into the wind should be utilized until the end of rollout. (Never quit flying the wing until you get to the gate)
preacher1
The bounce was more than should have been but just going by the story, the Xwind tagged him pretty close in. That said, in looking at the video again, he pretty much did just as you said. If you look close, and that video is not that good a quality, you can see the left wing cleaning up and the rudder movement to help straighten it out.
Shenandoah
Preacher, he quit flying the airplane. Period. The landing was hard, way too hard, and I stand by what I have said. The right gear impacted the runway, then skidded to the left. No excuse for a "proficient pilot" versed in x-wind landings on wide (or any other bodied) aircraft. A X-wind landing, when flown by a proficient pilot should be no more difficult than a landing with the wind coming directly down the runway. No wheels should be scrubbed, either the upwind or the downwind trucks.

I wish I had a nickel for every landing I ever made in a 767 or 777 when my track down final had the cockpit nearly over the side of the runway and the trucks on the centerline. Then, with cross controls appropriately applied (aileron into the wind, rudder to straighten the A/C to the centerline) resulting in a smooth landing on the centerline with no one the wiser.
preacher1
I can agree with the landing being way too hard. What I can't tell from the video is how far out he was when it hit him. If it was there when he started his approach, then I am in 100% agreement with you. If it came in out of nowhere on a short final, he may have just been attempting a correction and doing the best he could. That said, if it did just swoop in, it looked like in the video he had time & altitude for a goround and really set for it. In addition, I think it was at BHX which is notorious for xwind. idk. As below, that didn't look uncommon for the old KaiTak. LOL
Shenandoah
If it was reported to be a 35 knot x-wind then the only real option he had was to execute a missed approach because that is outside the x-wind limits for a 767 (unless he was exercising his prerogative as Captain in command due to minimum fuel, etc. and had no other options). I get so freakin' tired of watching these videos of airline pilots in "x-wind" conditions beating the living hell out of the equipment when it is not, ever, necessary.
snacko1
snacko1 1
No it's not. Our (major US airline) x-wind limitation on the 767 is 40 kts with sufficient rudder available and wing down to maintain centerline without dragging and engine or wing tip.
Shenandoah
You mean "no its not" on your airline. Airlines differ. There are no X-wind limits per se, only maximum demonstrated x-winds as experienced by the designer in testing. These are not to be considered as limits, however, exceed them at your own risk. Of course, wet or dry runways, slippery, etc. reduce those limits dramatically. I think our 777 dry max x-wind was 38 knots, but its been twelve years and some of those numbers escape me...
preacher1
These are from Boeing and individual airlines have gone from there.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&ved=0CD0QFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.smartcockpit.com%2Fdownload.php%3Fpath%3Ddocs%2F%26file%3DCrosswind_Guidelines.pdf&ei=7bZLU6iUI-WA2wWR8oHIDA&usg=AFQjCNEu-NUXgP5MBf-LKbUHDPsd_7BOOw&bvm=bv.64542518,d.b2I
preacher1
It's on page 5
snacko1
snacko1 1
I realize everyone's ops specs are different. Our company 767 limit is 40 dry, 35 wet.
preacher1
Well, if it was reported 35kt, don't know what he would have done. The 35kt is from whoever shot the video and you are very correct about the limits. Problem here is that BHX is famous for it's crosswinds. As far as beating up equipment, that almighty schedule rules the roost, and a lot of them have their jobs on the line nowadays if the don't do it, with them not giving a damn about the walk on/off freight.
Shenandoah
Preacher, I flew for thirty-seven years for a major airline and never once let the "almighty schedule" rule any roost I was sitting on. 'Nuff said...!
preacher1
Well, I had 36 the first time, retiring in 09, and then came back last year. Mine was all 135 big iron,more like a 90 operation as it was all corporate, mostly 707 and 757. We had specced out a 762-ER before I left and the took delivery a couple years ago. I got checked out on it and came back last year to handle a CRJ and train some newbies. All that to say this, I left in 09 and did some fill in while out and it is just mind boggling how insensitive and uncaring the whole business has turned. Even on a lot of 135's, the pointy end has just got a couple of pieces of meat in the front end, and if they get too bitchy or can't do what the bean counters want, they'll just get somebody else. April 1 I hung it up the 2nd time and I think it'll stick this time.
preacher1
I read another story that there was a gust to 35, but it did not state what the reported steady was. It obviously was less than that but depending on how close in he was, he should have went around, but as I said below, especially over there, that almighty schedule rules the roost.
bishops90
Probably got a new set of tires out of that one too. LG took quite a beating as well. Nice rudder work. Major pucker factor.
preacher1
They may have change them out but I don't think he blew any. If he didn't gear was probably OK. I definitely agree on the pucker factor. LOL (maybe an unkind word or 2 on the CVR?)
preacher1
To me, here in the states, AMA and ABQ were always notorious for that and you had to be on your game. All my time before my 1st retirement was on a 707 and 757 but there wasn't much difference. Except for that one nite at FSM in wx and getting hit with the stupids, never had this kind of problem on the 767.
twincessna
He or she is lucky they didn't loose the gear (San Francisco) there rate was low, not sticking the gear ,but driving it through the runway.
buzzard767
Landing in a crab is good? I captained 767s for 11 years and it slips in as well as any plane I've flown. Obviously that pilot never flew a tail dragger....
zaneyjo
Wow! They earned their pay on that one!
ianmooney
I'm not a pilot or aircraft engineer so I ask the question of those more skilled in the area - how close was this to becoming headline news for the wrong reason? As a regular air passenger, that video has raised concern in my mind about wanting to fly with this pilot / airline. Not sure if that's a valid concern but it is how i feel. Skilled as the pilot was at getting the landing done - I would have preferred the lower risk option of going-around or diverting. I appreciate the schedule implications of that, and the fact most passengers would bitch to the airline for running late - but i prefer lower risk takers!
preacher1
If I read the story right, the crosswind got him on short final and in reality, probably too late to do much. You are looking at about 5-6 seconds for engines to spool back to even 75% power to have enough muscle for a go around. No blown tires, idk about the gear but doubtful any problem there if tires stayed up. I can definitely agree on the pucker factor and probably some colorful words on the CVR. LOL
tufiremn
I recently saw a Youtube video of a bunch of AC landing, going around and taking off from what looks like that same RW on the same day. Some crab it, some slip it, and others say F that, I'll try again.
Tomcat59
Looked like it was more so hovering than coming in for landing!
nasdisco
Chris B 1
Phenomenal. Was thinking about crosswind training today.
sgbelverta
Could anyone tell which airline or airport that landing was at? I want to fly that airline to a different airport.
AButterw8
Sharon, it looks like Birmingham Int'l airport, but can't make out the airline,,,,
DrBeast
DrBeast 1
First Choice Airways.
AButterw8
Not any more !!!!!
DrBeast
DrBeast 1
True, they've merged with Thomson but it seems they've kept their livery.

preacher1
Story says it was Birmingham, in England, BHX
Sixpackdad
nice landing??? they never even aligned with the runway. a true crosswind landing that was NOT!
wheelchock
Oops - not. My bad
preacher1
I'm so glad you corrected that. LOL
wheelchock
Ja - My brain was up and locked. My first post in 5 years and I dropped a load of blue ice.
gdui
Yes, it's First choice. Very common visitors to Geneva during the skiing season.

Irish MD-11
twincessna
Machos could not be more correct , his sink rate was two high .
teix62
Aircraft should have been aligned with the centerline properly. Cross wind landing technique was very poor. Not a very good pilot, just a very lucky one. In my opinion I would have gone around. He obviously was not capable of making a safe landing in this situation.Airline pilots are not test pilots, especially with passenger lives on board.
calles
Just what I do in my driveway when scooting in!
wasclywabbit
So to any commercial pilots reading this. Do winglets change crosswind landing characteristics vs. an aircraft that isn't equipped with them? It would seem like you've got more surface area for the crosswind to push against on a winglet equipped aircraft.
Doobs
John- I don't think the winlets have anything to do with crosswind landings. They are mainly used for reduced drag and fuel efficiency. As far as the tires...Boeing put some great "Industrial strength Shock Absorbers" on their airplanes And it doesn't matter whether or not you have "winglets"...if you Crab and kick in the rudder...big time...straighten her out...then you walked away from another one.. Another example of the Cross Winds at "Kia Tak", in Hong Kong. If you landed...it was a good landing! On a wing and a prayer!
preacher1
yep, and he got hammered at the last; just came up. As he did, that is one more reason to have a hold of your airplane. How we operated in/out of Kai Tak so long is a miracle in itself. Dee, do you remember any real major crashes over there?
Doobs
Negative, Preacher. Although I thought I was going to be a statistic several times!
preacher1
There undoubtedly had to be some, or at least you would think, but I never heard of any either. I am in agreement on the statistic part. I guess one reason was that it has such a reputation that everybody was on their game when they came in there. It definitely had a reputation that preceded it. I know a lot of 121 drivers that would bid around it. With a couple of carriers, it got so bad it was a force board and senior pilots got put on it regardless. I never had a choice and depending on how I was feeling, there are times that pucker started before wheels up over here. LOL
Doobs
The "pucker factor" got pretty intense when you made that hard right over "CheckerBoard Hill"!
preacher1
yep. LOL. A lot of these young'uns out here missed out on that experience. I think everybody ought to have had to do that at least once. That is one place auto land wouldn't work too good. LOL. That would sure as heck make them appreciate a decent approach. LOL
Doobs
Kai Tak should be a mandatory hands on "situation" in the flight sims. Crank up the degree of the crosswind and wind speed. Would love to be a fly on the wall to watch that one!
preacher1
One thing about it, they would definitely learn how to hand fly one. LOL
mlucioareal
Is it really or Flight Simulator? I can't see any airplane identification...
konatom
That might work in a high wing C150 but lowering one of those g wings sounds pretty dicey to me.
devsfan
AND......It's AMERICAN made!!!...Don't tell me we here in the states "don't make anything good" anymore.
Am I waving the Stars and Stripes? You bet your bottom dollar.
preacher1
@ken young: is Bergstrom completely closed down?
annellandfrank
BSM is wide-open....just no more military; either Guard or active. What a shame...beautiful base. I flew F-4s out of there for 10 years.
Ref "the" ldg?? Incredibly poor judgement AND technique! First off....of all his options he chose the worst......to go ahead and land no matter what!! Secondly...up-wind wg-low to ldg, wg level crab to ldg, kick out "crab" at flare.......all can work w/even a semi-skilled pilot functioning w/in his personal parameters. But not this guy! That was a semi-controlled crash!! The only thing he did right was plant it on the runway rather than the pax terminal!!
On a more serious note......by any std that was a "hard" ldg! What happens 10 years from now when it fails "for no reason"??
georgiewarner
WOW, MASTER PILOT AND IMPRESSIVE FILM OF A SUPERIOR AIRCRAFT!
MACGSO
MACGSO 0
Sorry, but lousy landing technique by that pilot. He should have slipped it, rather than crabbing it in. Don't they teach pilots that nowadays? Also, I wonder how many tires the mechanics had to change after that, and if there was any damage to the gear? Surely someone reported a hard landing after all that bouncing around?
preacher1
Well, I don't think he had much choice. According to the story, it caught him right at the last. I wasn't there but he got it down and they all walked away. Kudos to the pilot.
FedExCargoPilot
I wonder how close the gear was to collapsing? How much impact can it take? But nice landing
preacher1
Doesn't appear to be any blown tires, and in most cases, while stressed, you won't have a gear problem without losing rubber.

[This poster has been suspended.]

jrbeejay
That is a stupid statement and you know it.
preacher1
idk about that
preacher1
You got to admit that Boeing builds a tough AC. Look at the 777 on 214 and what it endured, killing only 3 people, and they weren't buckled in and were ejected from the plane.
Mmamidipelli96
nicely landed,did the bumps had any effect.
Doobs
Great landing but I bet it was a Butt Pucker!
preacher1
10-4 on the pucker. LOL
rarebear14
Must be a former glider pilot ! Top notch...and no blown tires, unbelievable
Michael5867
Nice landing in extreme conditions! 👍
FlightNile
Those pilots are Aces!!!!!!!!!!! What an amazing landing
FlightNile
Those pilots are Aces!!!!!!!!!!! What an amazing landing
konatom
I always wondered what the outcome would be if a heavy tried that. Kudos to whoever was driving!
wheelchock
That's a 737.
fpk2
the airline had to overhaul de landing gear.....$$$$$$....kkkkk

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