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  • 43

Man kicked off plane in Detroit for dropping F-bomb may sue Delta carrier

送信時刻:
 
Man kicked off flight for using F-word in boarding area in casual conversation. (www.freep.com) さらに...

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lboyette
Can anyone say " First Amendment to the United States Constitution ". I could see if someone had given him a warning to please refrain from using that kind of language in a professional manor. On the other side, I'm sure that parts of this story / allegations are untold in the article. Really though? Getting kicked off for throwing the F-Bomb? I've heard 11 year old kids do it on flights.
tbone1172
OMG NO SHIST 1st AMENDMENT. Must be in CT there are so many peaple arested for cussing it's not funny.
chalet
chalet 0
Is this what really happened; I thought that these things were common only in Hitler's Germany and Stali's Soviet Union and other police states, not in the United States of America. The F-word goes to the deserving flight attendant that could have demanded common education from the passenger, but to drop him; probably she is some old ugly bitch who has nothing better to do.
chalet
chalet 0
Correction, it was a male flight attendant who complained to the pilot who in the process became an accomplice. The passenger should sue the hell out of the airline for damages.
rick737
So, this is what we've come to. Just a mere 30 years ago, men would save such words for the locker room or a pool haul, but today we use them in front of anyone within ear shot. It's not a matter of the constitution or 1st ammendment rights, it's a sign of a breakdown in our culture. Consideration of those around us has disappeared to be replaced by the "I'm the only person that matters" attitude. If anything was accomplished in this event, our f-bomb dropping passenger will hold his tongue ocassionally. On second thought, no, he'll sue. Another American trait.
preacher1
Well said Richard!!!!!!!!!!You don't even have to be Church folk. The Church is accepting things now that the world wouldn't accept then. That consideration of others seems to be a thing of the past.
kb9uwu
some of you sure are sue happy! shesh. When did America develop such a eschewed sense of self entitlement?
n7757
Now I agree they should not have kicked the dude off the flight. Just a FA that is to sensitive I guess. I hear the F-bomb all the time. I usally tell a passenger to knock it off. Let's use some restraint here...geez.
xmacfly
Public places have become a locker room full of people acting like drunks and self indulged,inconsiderate entitled ego maniacs. Bad enough on the street but sitting next to you in a 17' wide seat for an hour or two? A little common courtesy would go a long way. This is not a first amendment issue - get over that - ok to yell fire on an aircraft? - enough said about 1st amendment.
connomar
It's a wonderful thing that in your country, public profanity is still challenged. In my country, even the police tolerate being sworn at and it is no longer a nice place to live.
rick737
A number of years ago, while a captain for a major airline, a man and his approximately 14/15 year old daughter arrived at the gate for a flight I was operating. Emblazoned on his Tee shirt was the phrase "F@#K YOU" for the whole world to see. I approached the man(can't use the gentleman term here)and asked him if he was planning on boarding my flight. He said yes. I explained to him that his shirt was unacceptable and he would have to change it or cover it up. He got up in my face, stating he would sue me if I didn't let him on the flight. I handed him a business card with my name on it and told him to make sure he got the spelling correct on the law suit, but he would not be traveling today if he continued his threatening words and ways. His daughter seemed mortified by the situation. He eventually backed down and was allowed to travel. I warned the flight attendants of the incident and for them to keep an eye on him. A real jerk, and a sense of privilege all rolled into one.
preacher1
Way to go Richard.People can do and act as they want in private I guess, but they have to realize that their rights end where they start to infringe on others and a lot of people may not subscribe to their way of thinking.
k8usw
BRAVO, Richard! The 1st Amendment only applies to the government regulating speech. Private corporations and firms are perfectly within their rights to prohibit language and/or behavior that they feel is offensive or inappropriate. If I were a judge, I'd tell this guy to quit wasting the court's time on cases that are frivolous and to clean up his language. Delta was well within their rights and the 1st Amendment, in the case, is not a relevant argument.
kb9uwu
"Private corporations and firms are perfectly within their rights to prohibit language and/or behavior that they feel is offensive or inappropriate." well said!
tyma
we do have rights for freedom of speech i agree but there are kids around sometimes that just don't need to hear that stuff. But he shouldn't be kicked off just a verbal warning or something like that.
preacher1
Tyma: Clean up your own set of standards. There are adults as well that don't want to hear that stuff, and as I said in an earlier post, his rights end where mine begin. DAL is a private corporation and can do as they please. BRAVO DELTA for standing up for some decency
Av8nut
I share the sentiments as many of you have stated. I feel it's completely inappropriate to use foul language. In my opinion, I look at the person as uneducated, as if they have a limited vocabulary. Very sad that such low-class people feel they have to resort to curse words to express themselves.
As was stated earlier, it really is a breakdown in mankind. People feel they can do/say anything, anywhere, at any time, and if anyone tries to stop them, they're going to sue them - No consideration for your fellowman. Whatever happened to the Golden Rule - do to others as you would have done to you?
Way to go, Delta.
jamesmattix2
Language aside, the fligh attendant was out of line. It seems that a simple thing like "CUSTOMER SERVICE" has been forgotten! And if the "F" bomb offends you that easily, you must not fly that much. If you're that offended by simple foul language, don't turn on your TV, radio or leave the house.
avesraggiana
I’m a current airline Captain and twice I’ve removed passengers for dropping the F-Bomb, while boarding. This is not a First Amendment anything. Without too much stretching of the definition of security and safety, anybody who demonstrates such a complete LACK of self-control in a public space, particularly a cramped, crowded and confined one, presents a potential security threat to my fellow crewmembers and passengers.

Any passenger who cannot restrain themselves well enough to NOT use profanity in an audible or threatening manner has no business being on an airplane. For the most part, most passengers are doing their best to mind their manners under very trying circumstances.
lavalampluva
I expected this. Most people are inclined to sue, even if they are 100% at fault.
Av8nut
James, go ahead and use your foul language if you must, because you have your "right". Just remember that most people will look at you as some uneducated trailer-trash, that never made it past the third grade.

Remember, that airlines as a company, provide a service for you as a customer. If each party complies with the rules for the transaction of the service, each will be happy. Thus, the airlines providing the service have the right to stipulate the rules. Don't like it, don't be a customer.

I went to Disney World last month and it was over 100 degrees everyday. They didn't allow people to be shirtless, even though it was so stinking hot. I didn't like the rule, but I didn't want to leave either. So I wore my shirt and still had a great time.

If everyone would stop demanding their "rights" and start acting like decent, considerate human beings, the future of humankind might look better.
SWEATINTHSWAMP
@greg anderson "Now I agree they should not have kicked the dude off the flight. Just a FA that is to sensitive I guess. I hear the F-bomb all the time. I usally tell a passenger to knock it off. Let's use some restraint here...geez."

Here is the problem. When a passenger tells another passenger to 'knock it off' in today's world you have a whole new set of circumstances, violence and confrontation in a small enclosed place like the airline tube. While it doesn't really bother me anymore I think it is sad commentary on society today that we are out of control. And suing just adds to my opinion the guy is a real jerk.
AgentX
"his rights end where mine begin" ... Good Attitude Wayne, Who is to determine where this line begins and ends? You? This is exactly what this country was founded on. Stay home and play king of your castle...
jamesmattix2
Michael, I'm not agreeing with his language. But I do fly a minimum of 4 flights a week and deal with incompetant and moronic idiots on a rather regular basis on these flight and in the airports, and quite honestly, the behavior of these people makes me want to scream. Like you did at Disney, I "keep my shirt on" because I am a highly educated person who does not live in a trailer, but I have a semi-thick skin developed in the real world.
I'm just saying that if fould language is that offensive to a person, then one should avoid the social situations that will expose one to those offenses. I'm more offended by the people that seem to think that the whole world wants to hear their cell-phone conversation or people who think that reading their text messages or emails while driving (or walking).
And I'm willing to bet if the FA had simply asked him not to use that language, the problem would have been resolved without any more discussion. It's quite amazing - the words "sir" and "please" still work.
The law suit...I think that if he goes through with it we'll all know why the ticket prices increase slightly and we'll know who to thank!
usad
usad 0
What about the right to act civilized toward our fellow man? Civil. Yes, I know it's not in the constitution. This regulation was written much earlier than that...in stone on a mountain. We have lots of legal rights in this country that are being diminished everyday. But this is one we should demand that it be upheld. Common courtesy. No one should talk that way in public. My hat is off to the flight crew for standing up to a verbal "bully." Good show!
frankidee
So for those that think using the F word in public is OK: would it still be OK if this person used it in front of your children? Really? Look in the mirror to see what you've become, then look at your children to see what they will become.
usad
usad 0
@frankidee No sir, I did not say or intend that this person could say it in private in my home. I do not invite people who talk in that way on my property and I think that you knew that when you read my post. And that is all I have to say in regard to this thread. Everyone who thinks this person did nothing wrong...you are entitled to your opinions regardless of whether I agree or not.
ExCalbr
To those people who state the flight attendant is being too sensitive, I have this reply. The FAs job includes looking out for the passengers. It may be the sensitivities of them he was looking out for, unlike the passenger who dropped the f-bomb.

I also suspect that the man did get a warning and didn't back down or was otherwise acting belligerently.

@Richard Weiss, how did the lawsuit go?
sparkie624
I believe that there is more here than meets the eye. He was probably warned more than once, failed to comply. With Families and Children around they did the right thing. Where I agree with the first amendment, it does not have to comply with with infringing on the rights of others. I know I do not want to hear it, Where is my right to protect my family and children from verbally abusive people. Way to go Delta.
tyma
@Wayne Bookout oh yea i totaly agree with that too its not just a kids thing its just not good for anyone it gives a bad first impression for all those other passengers flying on that plane too.
jshark00
The PIC has ultimate authority for the safety and operation of the flight. The First Amendment has nothing to do w/ it.
rick737
To Victor, as usual the moron in the Foul Shirt was full of hot air. I never heard another word about it. In cases like this, some passengers will write a letter of complaint to the airline. The most likely reason for the letter is to obtain a few free passes for their "pain and suffering." This guy must have discussed the matter with his bar room lawyer and took no action. Or he just couldn't read and write.
jasscarff
James Mattix, I think your attitude is sensible and practical. Yes, we should conduct ourselves like gentlemen and ladies, but some of us don't and our culture won't go up in flames because of that. Rude fools have been around forever and will continue to be. I keep thinking about the scheduling issues of this incident. With a flight apparently running forty-five minutes late how much time was burned by returning to the gate, removing the passenger, and then getting back in line with ATC? I'd rather make my connecting flight than uphold the social standards of western civilization.
rick737
To James scarff, What we're not privy to is the attitude of the passenger, the reaction of those around him, the volatily of the situation as sensed by the flight attendent, and the potential for a violent confrontation by all parties. Simply put, you weren't there and the F/A was. You think there was added delay because of the return to gate, think about delay due to an off line divert. I have over 35 years of experience in this arena, and in my opinion, the captain did right thing.
sparkie624
To Richard. Ditto All the way. I have ben in the Airline Industry for over 27 years working in many aspects of maintenance and have seen much. Including a passenger putting his fist through a PSU (Passenger Service Unit), another passenger on a delayed flight that I was working utter the words just as I was signing it off "If you don't get this plane moving right now, I'g going to blow this BOMB!". When you get people like that, it is not a good idea to keep them on the plane. They are nothing but trouble and it is only going to get worse during the flight.
jasscarff
Richard and Sparkie, Sure. If the guy is violent get him off the flight and into custody. But this guy SAYS he just muttered an obscenity which wasn't meant to be overheard. Maybe true, maybe not. I've heard that while traveling more than once and no one went berserk. You're right, I wasn't there. None of us were. We'll have to defer to the judgment of the F/A. But they're human and can overreact.
sparkie624
James: What "HE" said he muttered and the drunk only had 2 drinks!
jasscarff
Sparkie, Well, too bad he didn't have six. He could have passed out in the waiting area and saved everyone some trouble.
chiphermes
Was this man a Southwest Airlines pilot??
akahep
@Michael Fuq. Rudeness is not exclusive to those that are uneducated, as a recent situation on a train from NY to CT showed. The woman was unruly and kept telling the conductor how well educated she was. Didn't matter, she was still a poor excuse for a human being.
JamesSwinnen
Don't feel at all sorry for the guy losing his right to be a crude jerk in front of the other passengers (although if it was as he describes, perhaps the crew overreacted). And to those who are debating his 1st Amendment rights -- that applies only to the government (at least until some federal bureaucrat thinks that he/she is entitled to dictate private conduct in this area as well). If you run a private business and decide that you don't want customers who drop F bombs all over the place, you can eject them from the premises or the plane without ever having to consider 1st Amendment implications.
alfadog
alfadog 0
No Chip, he didn't hit on the FA. Though maybe she was a grannie or a grande.
nessman
Grow some skin people. Fuck-fuckitty-fuck-fuck.
enm1996
If the reported situation is taken in the context of a vacuum, or belief that the media "got it right," then that is the true crux of this blog, and our society in general. Most people in the U.S. will believe what they are told, and are too lazy to research the topic. I'll bite; so, speaking in the context of a vacuum, I'll comment as follows: I think many of the Captains in this blog are demonstrating their arrogance and condescending attitude. Really, freedom of speech means nothing in an airline environment; "...audible or threatening manner...,” you say? Do you hear yourselves? That type of attitude leaves no choice, no variance, and no deviation from the straight line.

Threatening, certainly, sit them on the tarmac and take off. Audible, no, let a person have their coffee, say it's really f-ing good, and go on with your day. Does it sting your ears? I'm soooo sorry for that, sir. Would I personally ask them to refrain from using those words around my kids, surely. Nevertheless, if the person elected to heed not my advice, I would not make it physical (i.e. kick them in the face or off of my airplane), I would tell my kids which of the many words were unacceptable. Call it a teaching example. I wouldn't have to tell the adult passenger next to me the need to avoid such words, as their parents should have already addressed that issue. Although, the Captains’, et al, attitude is understood, as religion is the founding principle for many of our laws. The foregoing represents a layman's interpretation of control, wherein his responsibility is for the passengers within "their airplane" overrides a person's rights.

Don't misinterpret the context of this prose; threatening impeaches a person's rights, being a loud speaker with inappropriate words does not.
LarryBass
Didn't Biden drop the f bomb in our presidents ear recently? I don't remember secret service escorting the president away to a safe place... With that said, the language that this thread refers to is hardly restricted to the "trailor park trash" population anymore. I swear, not proud of it, but I also restrict it to an appropriate audience. I applaud and thank the airline for at least trying to minimize the hassle to other passengers.
robot40
The article says he is a children's book author. What the 'F' does he write about?
JanJensen
I chose the wrong airline to work for. I wish I worked for Delta, since I would be kicked off every flight using that standard. And I like being at home.
RobLAL
What about the First Amendment? He has the right, as it were, to drop and F-bomb and nobody's preventing him from doing so. What he doesn't have a right to is flying on a commercial flight. He probably won't get anywhere with his lawsuit.
md69
All we have here is pure speculation. "A flight attendant overheard"; if that's the case, what was the F/A doing eavesdropping on a private conversation?

The passenger openly admits to being hungover but not drunk. That part I do believe as if the check in staff / F/A / Captain thought he was drunk he wouldn't be allowed to board.

What does his chosen profession have to do with the way he speaks? I work in a retail environment where there are 5 - 16 year olds in the shop on a daily basis. I don't swear in front of them, so does that mean I can't swear at all? No it doesn't.

Removing the passenger just because a F/A REPORTED that he'd overheard the F-bomb (and why do you Americans use such a sensitive word in your over-paranoid state?) is pure overkill. As has already been said, a simple "Would you mind toning your language sir?" would have gone a long way. As far as I understand it, and no doubt somebody will correct me if I'm wrong, a passenger should only be removed if s/he is endangering the flight. If saying one word is doing that then I truly feel sorry for your country.
crchall
The First Amendment does not apply in this case. It only applies to PUBLIC speech. Because he bought a ticket, he agrees to the terms and conditions of that ticket, whatever they may be. If it says he has to wear purple shoes, he agreed to it when he bought the ticket. It is up to the airline what they consider unacceptable behaviour. The airline exercised their right to exclude him because of that behaviour. You people ought to really read the Bill of Rights before spouting off about something you know little about.
Useless
I read this with sadness, our children are growing up believing that whatever they think is right and they can enforce that right. If you were an alien looking down on earth would you want to drop in and say "Hi"?
Can't we all not get on especially in confined spaces? It seems not its quite different now to ten years ago so what will it be like in ten years time?
There and I didn't swear once!!
RobLAL
"(and why do you Americans use such a sensitive word in your over-paranoid state?)"

Paranoid? It's called polite conversation. Generally, if I think a website will allow the comment, I'd use the swear word in the context of quoting somebody else. I don't know that that's the case on FlightAware, so I will use "F-bomb" or f**k. My opinion is to use it because we all know what it means, just like "N-word", but not everybody allows it.
md69
I meant why call it "F-bomb" as opposed to "F-word"? I wouldn't have told my kids when they were young: "Don't let me hear you say the F-bomb".
md69
And the paranoia didn't relate to the conversation. I meant the state of your country in general. Yes we all take security seriously but there's security and then there's paranoia.
preed66617
Pat Reed 0
I guess I'll have to check my ticket alittle closer. Is there a speach clause written on the agreement? The word is not polite word, but where is it written that we must all use "politically correct language". PC seems to our latest creed, but who sets the standards? And when was the elecion for the PC sheriff. Missed that one, probably when I was serving to protect and service the constitution.
Kimikaze
Kimikaze 0
I’m amazed how many of you find this behavior acceptable. I can’t stand to listen to someone using this type of language in public or in general conversation. It represents a lack of maturity and courtesy toward others. If it was suitable for general conversation, it would be taught in school and I don’t remember my teachers or professors using inappropriate language. For those of you that find this unobjectionable, I feel sorry for you. If this was the only way this idiot could express himself in public, he deserved to be put off the plane. Children’s books, huh?
md69
Kim, I'm from an era (I'm nearly 48) where grammar, punctuation, spelling and capitalisation (the English way) were taught, and marks were deducted for mistakes in all of those categories. I am told by many people that I'm a "grammar Nazi" for correcting people in all of the above, including the use of the "verb" 'of' as in "I should of done that". But it's an indictment of society today that allows all these things to be considered normal, same as text speak and other acronyms etc which have found their way into the dictionary.

I used to be told by my parents that swearing was a lazy way of speaking, and even when I was 21, my father told off his colleagues if they used the "F-word" in front of me, despite him knowing that I said it myself out of his earshot. In the 21st century however, it has become commonplace to say it in everyday language, whether we like it or not. My own 16yo son says it in front of, and sometimes to, me. I don't take offence unless it's said in an offensive way, and then he'll get told in no uncertain terms.
Useless
Way to go Kim!!
rick737
As stated in my previous posts, the language is more of an indication of a breakdown in civility and concern for the rights and sensitivities of others. The fact that such language may be disturbing to others means absolutely nothing to many of the writers in this blog, tells me volumes about the quality of their character. If someone says this language is something inappropriate in front of their children, but wouldn't hesitate to drop a few "bombs" in public loud enough for all to hear, I would assume the carefully checked the surroundings for anyone they might offend before speaking. If they did so could they just find a more suitable word and skip vulgarity? A very smart teacher once explained it to me this way. They over use of vulgarity is in direct proportion the the under use of the brain.
philj49
Has got to be more to the story,period
md69
Phillip - exactly!

Richard, while I accept part of your comment, see Pat's comment above. Who defines the boundaries of acceptability? The world is full of do-gooders who in reality have nothing better to do. I was "only" educated to the end of "normal" education in the UK (don't know the US equivalent), but I'd consider my brain to be fairly actively used. That doesn't prevent me from using profanities when I choose to.

I also wish that the use of the word "bomb" was dropped from this thread. The OED has many definitions of the word, but for North America, it defines the noun as "a bad failure (esp. a theatrical one)", or an intransitive verb as "US slang - fail badly". Nowhere does it refer to a deleted expletive.
MsLynn707
well for what its worth FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK now then did that hurt your eyes or ears, no I did not think it hurt you, its just a "WORD" what part of that hurt you so badly, and I'm a college graduate, and at 61 yrs old, I firmly BELIEVE THAT THE THE AIRLINES AND THE GOD AWFUL TSA ARE TO SOME DEGREE WAY OVER STEPPING THEIR BOUNDARIES. Why does this bring up such STUPID COMMENTS?
rick737
MsLynn, thanks for helping prove that the over use of profanity is in direct proportion to the under use of the brain. Please note there is no profanity in this post and I was still able to make a point.
Lindsaybkk
It is good to see that some airlines are trying to keep a level of maturity so some of us don't feel like we are getting onto a bus. There are low cost airlines for people who want to swear. The IQ of the average American has gone down quite a bit over the last couple of years, but then again alot of American's just can't stand the word "No". And they wonder why American's are not liked around the world.
maliesmom
Bravo Rick737! Your comments are the ones that make the most rational sense. If most pilots were in charge of the world it would probably be a better place with more decency and respect for all.
md69
Robin - you mean pilots that maybe say, fly for Southwest? You know, one of the other stories in this week's mail? A fine example of the sort of person you want at the pointy end...
maliesmom
You're right of course, let me clarify to say competent, mature, seasoned captains, the Sulley types.
rick737
MD69, Your post indicates the ability of the average American to be lead by the nose by the news media. There's a huge difference between two guys in a locked cockpit discussing something privately, and someone loudly using abusive language in a public setting. I don't condone anything that the SWA pilot said. The fact remains he thought it was a private statement. Md69, your statement says that you "stereotype" entire groups of people based on the actions of one person in that group. Do you do the same thing when it applies to the races?
joecat060
it appears to me that the captain overreacted. He made a decision to turn the plane around, which delayed the flight even more, and had the passenger escorted off the airplane based on secondhand information from the flight attendant. From the news article the captain did not even investigate the accusation made by the flight attendant. Let us put the discussion about manners and civility aside because that is not the major issue. To me the issue is the professionalism of the captain. In my opinion his ego got in the way of his judgment. I am well aware that the captain is the ultimate authority on a plane. However, that amount of authority brings with it a responsibility to use the authority in a professional manner. Professionalism includes the mental action of weighing all the facts and making a decision about what is the greater good. In my opinion there was no good to be accomplished by delaying the flight even further to make an example of this man about the use of better manners. the captain decided to use a baseball bat to kill a gnat. I would question the wisdom of remaining on a flight captain by a person who reacts emotionally to a difficult situation. I wonder, if this captain lost all power on takeoff, would he have the presence of mind to perform the necessary actions to save the plane or would he use poor judgment based on his emotionl state and make the wrong decision. The captain should be investigated for lack of professional judgment.
md69
Rick, I don't stereotype anybody in general. I may have a laugh in private about things which would be considered politically incorrect in a public environment. I defy anybody to say that they do otherwise. This "someone loudly using abusive language in a public setting"; I assume you're referring to the passenger who was escorted from the aircraft? If so, that's not what the article said. The passenger commented to the person sat next to him. I'm assuming that there is not yet an FAA rule which prohibits talking in a normal volume to the person sitting next to you.

And the two guys locked in a cockpit discussing something privately. These are professional people who practice over & over again, and put into use on a daily basis, well-rehearsed procedures. I'm assuming that removing your thumb from the transmit button after making an R/T is fairly elementary. It was when I was learning to fly; I even remember releasing the PTT button on my CB radio microphone back in 1981.

Joseph is correct in stating that the captain over-reacted. Not only did he remove someone for allegedly saying a word that would, had the F/A got out of the right side of the bed that morning, have gone unnoticed, but he also inconvenienced several other people on the flight. As I understand it (and having been in the circumstance where it happened), when a passenger is offloaded, the checked baggage has to be offloaded too. So, factor the time to do that, allied to the removal of the passenger, subsequent delays to the rest of the passengers could potentially mean that a number of other passengers missed more connecting flights, all as a result of someone allegedly saying a word which is in everyday use. That could have resulted in Delta having to pay accommodation for passengers thus inconvenienced. I'm not saying that happened, just that it could have.
rick737
There you all go, again. Everyone in opposition to the captain's actions are assuming the press has the story accurately. Of course, the accused is saying he was barely mumbling and the FA was eavesdropping on a private conversation. The "f" dropper isn't going to self incriminate while trying to build that million dollar case in the press. The captain must rely on the crew, and allow their judgement to mean something. The words above seem to indicate that all captains are egomaniacs, praying for the opportunity to flex a little muscle. I been in this same situation before and had to balance the FA imput with the safety of the flight, and the best interest of the company. It ain't easy. Give the captain the same benefit of the doubt given to our foul mouth customer.If the captain had not returned to the gate and the situation had gotten out of hand would all of you be as harse because he didn't listen the the FA?
As far as the SWA captain with the stuck mic, I see a lack of experience and understanding of systems in Boeing aircraft. The yoke switch the pilot pushes is a rocker assembly the contacts the actual switch inside the yoke. As the springs or the shaft it rides on wear out they can bind. The Captain didn't inadvertently hold the switch in the transmit mode, he engaged it, and when he let go the mic switch did not spring to the "off" position. That's a little different than assuming the pilot was such a dunce, he just held the mic open and made a fool of himself.
zone5ive
zone5ive 0
In my home airport, certain language is not permitted in boarding areas and there are signs that say so. For example, a comedian might be returning from a gig. If he said "I bombed last night" and a security agent overheard, he could be arrested. Certainly he wouldn't fly out of my home airport. All this freedom of speech talk does is could the issue. Here it is: If you want to fly, do not say the word "bomb." If an airline crewmember wants to explain something to you, do not say, "I don't have to listen to you." If you have bloodshot eyes and start swearing loudly enough that someone a couple of rows away can hear you, expect to attract attention. That is the world we live in. I can't change it, you can't change it. As they say, if you don't like having your person searched, "you can always choose not to fly."
md69
Rick - I'm assuming you're not a pilot with SWA. I have had no experience flying with SWA - my only lo-co operator flights have all been with Easyjet - 94 flights in total. I'm hoping that the pilots on all of those flights are a little more experienced that this guy seems to have been. I mean, how many hours do you need in your log book to get into the left seat of a SWA737? If the button fault is a well-known glitch on the 737 (not bad for the world's best-ever selling airliner), don't you think that either Boeing need to be informed, or SWA's maintenance team need to get the WD-40 out and loosen it up a little?

Want me to take the shovel out of your hands?
rick737
MD 69 that is exactly what the maintenance people do when the switches get sticky. Typical Boeing, the quality is so good, this may happen once ever six or seven years. Hardly an everday ocurrance, it's one of those "gottchas" that will happen to everyone if they fly the 737 long enough. Rest assured the captains at SWA are in the 10,000 flight hour area. That's a bit more experienced than your 94 flights on EasyJet. Whose really in need of that imaginary shovel of yours now.
One more thing, as a matter of fact, I am a retired SWA Captain. I am writing in defense of my opinion using facts learned in 42 years as a professional pilot. With that said, I feel strongly about the support we give our FA's so that they feel comfortable in the knowledge we have eachother's best interest at heart. If a captain wants a bad flight with a plane full of angry customers, all he, or she has to do is treat the FA as if they are irrelevant. Works every time.
kevcapoz
WOW! In the UK and even here in Dubai on TV the F-word isn't even bleeped! I feel sorry for everyone in the US as it turns into a police state. But here in Dubai if you give another driver the 'bird' you can get prosecuted and go to jail. the difference is that the latter is directed at someone, the former on-board incident it wasn't.
rick737
precisely the point, Kevin. Since the word is spoken freely, without any concern for the poeple within earshot, we have become a nation of individual little universes. No one is arrested for their language problems here unless it is directed at another in a threatening way. The passenger in this incident must have caused the FA to feel a threat was present by the tone of the words used, which happened to include the F word.
G4QLADYOVELLA
The people who lack decency in language and character are the same ones who will not respect or follow crewmember instructions on the airplane. Trust me on this, I've seen it happen too many times.
rick737
Well said, John.
md69
Richard - I meant my flights as a passenger. During my period of learning to fly, I developed epiliepsy and was therefore grounded. So nope, don't need a shovel.

As for treating the FAs as irrelevant, I refer you back to the other topic on the weekly newsletter. Your ex-colleagues seem to think that ugliness & homosexuality isn't allowed. Who the hell are you, or they, to judge a person because they don't conform to your views? And before you open your mouth on that one, my eldest son is bisexual.

Also, I don't buy the "sticky button" theory. As you may well have learned in your 42 years as a professional pilot, two open buttons on the same frequency produce a hell of a squawking noise. At no point in that exchange did that happen; the controller could hear other aircraft. So what price your theory now?

Kevin - you have to accept that the US can be a repressed nation sometimes. They don't allow people to whisper the F-word to someone sitting next to them, they want to try to allow passengers to be strapped into their seats for the last hour of a flight so they can't attempt to set off explosives in their underwear (I can imagine the hell that would cause an incontinent person and the seat that they'd sat in if they couldn't hold their bladder for an hour), in certain states they don't allow the purchase of alcohol on Sundays, they challenge people like myself, nearly 48 years of age, to show ID to prove they're over 21 when they do allow you to purchase alcohol, and they allow normal street-walking citizens to carry guns around.

Back to Richard. From the information given in the initial report, the FA was only within earshot of the person uttering the profanity and it wasn't aimed in their direction. So how the hell can the FA think that the person was causing a threat? We all get pissed off when our flight is delayed for whatever reason, so we say things in a way that we otherwise might not.

From the information presented in the report, we have an over-zealous (possibly ugly & gay) flight attendant who had had an argument with his/her boy/girlfriend before boarding the flight, who was looking to take his/her ire out on the first person who got his/her hackles up. S/he then decided to inconvenience the rest of the passengers on that flight by being a "jobsworth". No more, no less.
md69
John, I can say the F-word as much as I like in every day language. When I come across a person in a position of authority, I act as I should. If a F/A told me to put my seat back upright and stow my tray table, I wouldn't tell them to f-off.
lafe005
you never went to france (Paris more specificly)!!... you would be terrorised.!! LOL
the F Word (translated of course) is a commun word...
lafe005
you never went to france (Paris more specificly)!!...
you all would be terrorised.!! LOL
the F Word (translated of course) is a commun word...

"va te faire foutre", "enculé", and others.!!
rick737
MD69, Again you show your lack of understanding of aircraft systems. When the mic button is depressed, that radio does not receive imput from other transmitters. Since the offending pilot could be overriddeen by other transmitters, it indicates to me that he must have been further from the ATC receiver site than other aircraft. You're still digging that hole with the shovel called ignorance. Again and again, I have said in this blog, I don't condone or agree with the words of the offending SWA pilot, BUT the fact remains he was in a locked cockpit, talking to one other person, and made the mistake of not insuring he wasn't transmitting.
md69
Rick, having listened to enough ATC transmissions in my time, I've heard when two microphones are open at the same time. If one of them is yours, granted, you won't hear the other mic. But if you're listening in, as in this case, ATC were, and able to hear another aircraft, as ATC were, then does this not indicate that there wasn't necessarily a stuck button?

And yes, it was a private conversation, between two consenting adults. The same as the passenger who was thrown off the aircraft by an over-zealous F/A. Your call.

Oh and by the way. I know you & your fellow countrymen show an ignorance of spelling of certain words of our language, even going out of your way to create a language called "English (U.S.)", but some of your spellings above are not the American way of spelling our words. "Insure" is to, for example, "secure the payment of a sum of money in the event of loss or damage to (property, life, a person, etc.) by regular payments or premiums". "Ensure", on the other hand, is to "make certain".
rick737
I'm doing this blogging on the fly, no pun intended. I don't take the time to spell/grammer check everything I write. Yet you seem to be offended by my offenses to the English language, but not not offended by the foul mouthed passenger's use of unpleasant words. Think about that.

In 27,000 hours of flying, I have listened to far more radio transmissions than you will ever hope to. Again MD69, you have absolutely no understanding of ATC procedures, or how pilots and ATC communicate. Please for, and your own dignity, stop showing your ignorance.

Lafe005, I am not terrorized or even horrorified by the F word. I like to think that I've learned over the years that it's not appropriate for every sentence spoken. Not long ago this attitude was the norm. Why has it changed?
md69
Richard, I do have a basic understanding of ATC procedures. As stated above, before health issues grounded me, I was learning to fly. I had to talk to ATC on several occasions. Therefore, while on a very low level, I do feel I have some qualification to talk about it.

Also, you "don't take the time to spell/grammer (sic) check everything" you write. Read your second post on this thread, when you told a man to cover up his offensive shirt (which, incidentally, I agree with). You said, and I quote "I handed him a business card with my name on it and told him to make sure he got the spelling correct on the law suit". You hypocrite.

And I repeat my earlier statement. The person removed from the aircraft was having a quiet, private conversation with a fellow passenger. He wasn't standing in the aisle screaming and shouting. If anybody is having a private conversation, I have no need to take offence. If however that person had used profanities directly to me, in an antagonising way, then I would have done something about it.
rick737
Martin, you seem like a nice man. We seem to agree on many points. As stated in a previous post, WE weren't there. WE have no knowledge of the facts, other than the passenger used offensive language and was called on it. The degree, volume and context of the confrontation is open to the interpretation of the witnesses, which WE are not. Yet, you are willing to defend a foul mouth customer over the FA who has the safety of the aircraft and it's contents included in his area of responsibility. It's your right to have bad judgement, but when a flight crewmember does, people die.
Now, I'm a hypocrite for making a point with customer. That, my friend is called grasping at straws.
rick737
Oh, and by the way, we yanks spell it offense,,,, not offence. Which is correct?
md69
Rick, thanks for the compliment. On the whole, I, and my friends, think I'm a nice bloke. I'm not *defending* the allegedly foul-mouthed customer (because WE weren't there as you rightly point out), but if what the story says is true, it was a PRIVATE conversation which didn't involve the FA. Therefore, it was totally overkill. What if, at FL350, that same customer had questioned the quality of the in-flight meal by saying it was crap, under-cooked, inedible, etc? Is the FA going to ask the pilot to divert based on that?

I only said you were a hyprocrite for saying that you don't spell check all your posts yet made a point of saying that to a customer who was about to board your aircraft.

As for the spelling - well seeing as we invented the language, ours must be correct ;-)
tradi
Mr. Sayegh:

If you havn't already done so, make sure Delta provides you with the names and addresses of your fellow passengers. They will be useful witnesses.
captainjman
So much to say, so little time - first off - no i haven't been to france, If i changed my mind and wanted to hang out with people who only like the US when germany invades - I will let you know. France, is now the benchmark? Really? This is a country who sold weapons to organizations like the PLO, and HAMAS - two of the worst terror organizations in recent history. Trust me, If I ended up in France for any reason I would proudly say the F word to everyone there, because they deserve it. As for a passenger... its simple really - if one of my passengers was agitated and swearing I would have him removed from my plane as well. My personal experience is that once the door closes and the gears up - that same individual gets even more out of control. As to the idiot who refers to the first amendment (freedom of speech), take a law class - I't will teach you very quickly that the freedom of speech is not universal. For instance, on someone else's multi million dollar jet aircraft - with hundreds of people stuck close to him not able to simply "walk away". That being said, as an airline captain I feel sorry for the way passengers get treated - and in a perfect world they would get F-bombed daily until they started treating people less like inconvenient cargo and more like high value clients
rick737
Anybody old enough to remember the first attack on Libya? We sent FB-111's all the way from England to Tripoli for that one. Unfortunately, the french government would not allow the American aircraft to over-fly french airspace to shorten the round trip dramatically. Several aircraft were lost, and the crewmen killed on the return trip from Libya to England because of the extra long flight that took them west of Spain and Portugal. As Johnny Carson put it in his Monologue that night"since the french would not allow over-flight on their nation for this mission, perhaps all Americans should avoid french airspace." Eric, don't hold the French up to us as the example to be sent in any endeavor.
md69
Look, why are we bringing the WW2 into this? Yes, we all know that the French said "Of course Mr Hitler, walk in and take over", but remind us Brits how long it took the US to join the party. If the Japs hadn't decided to bomb Pearl Harbour, you lot would never have even known the war was on. Even now, a lot of your countryfolk don't believe the world exists past the Pacific to the west and the Atlantic to the east. France? Well it's a lovely country, Paris especially, ruined by one thing. It's people. I speak from personal expereience of both.

Jason - nowhere in the original story was it reported that the passenger was agitated. All it said was that he said the F-word, in, if we're led to believe, a private conversation, to ask his fellow passenger why there had been a delay. That's it. If that is cause enough to remove a passenger, I daresay a lot of aeroplanes would be flying empty in English-speaking countries. What will happen on Thursday 30th June when some of your colleagues want to fly to the UK, and find that our customs & immigration officers are on strike, and unloading and loading your aircraft might take a lot longer than usual. Who is going to be using the F-word then? Not just the passengers, I'll bet.

By your ruling, the SWA pilots should be sacked, or are you defending their broadcast?

As for the French not allowing overflights Rick, I wouldn't be too worried over that. It happens every summer to UK holidaymakers flying to Spain and surrounding areas. It's part of their contract that they have to go on strike at least once every summer.
rick737
Martin, the reason the past was brought up is rhetorical. Since Eric was trying to point to the french as the leading edge of advanced culture, Jason and I wanted to point out their lack of national charactor.

Additionally, you still defend the "f" dropper based on news reports that are not verified by anything but the Perps words. That wouldn't be good journalism, even by British and American standards.
captainjman
Martin - I'm pretty sure this guy didn't just sit in his seat and say "fuck". There's
More tk that story and any sane person knows that. We "airlines" makeover by providing common carriage to passengers - not by denying them travel. It amazes me the rudeness of some of our passengers. One guy when asked to gate check his bag on a dash 8 threw the bag at the flight attenent and swore at her. I am happy that my coworker (the captain on that flight kicked his ass off". After all that FA was my wife. See, those soda dispensers are people too. And if someone is unruely then I would deny them travel. In all my 21 years of flying I've only had to deny 4-5 people
- I'd say I have a pretty good grip on the this topic.


As for the French - well - what else can be said - they are in bed with the Muslims
And are only now trying to do something about it in their own country. Maybe some day they will notice the folks they are siding with don't believe in live and let live
md69
Rick - the only culture in France, apart from a few nice tourist attractions in Paris, in grown in laboratories. Sorry Eric, but that's how I see your country. As I've stated above, the use of the F-word in private conversation is perfectly normal. It may be a profanity in one mans vocabulary, but not in another. If we're going to go down that road, the Detroit Free Press needs taking to task. Being "tossed off" has a totally different meaning to me. If Delta's in flight entertainment consisted of being tossed off by a rather attractive female member of the cabin crew, I'd fly Delta every time I came to, or flew within, the United States.

Jason, as we've already pointed out several times in this thread, all we have to go on is SPECULATION. Whether your wife is a trolley dolly or not is not relevant here.
captainjman
Used to be a trolley dolly- now an RN - but your condescending comment about flight attendants is uncalled for. But since you think the f word "MARTIN" is totally acceptable, please accept out F bomb remarks about you. I'm sure a few hundred could chime in. And say it all you like - but say it on my plane and i'll kick you off in an instant - I'm sure you will be recognizable by your oversized forehead and knuckles dragging on the ground behind you
md69
Jason - you really need to get a grip on English humour. And yes, the F-word is totally acceptable. In private situations, such as we are led to believe that this was meant to have been, if the newspaper report is true. Hands up all who were there? Nope, don't see any hands. And please stop using the word "bomb". For a country that is paranoid about such things, you and your fellow countrymen here seem to use it an awful lot.

As for using it on your aircraft - how do you know I haven't already? You don't know if I've been in the back while you've been driving, do you? And if I *do* say it when you're in the highly exalted left seat and I'm in the back, and you threaten me in such a way, then, my friend, I'm afraid that your sorry ass wouldn't touch the floor. You may escort me off your aircraft in any civil manner you wish, but beating the crap out of me sure as shit ain't one of them.

Is there some kind of ruling in "The Land Of The Free" that once you get 4-stripes on your epaulettes, they come with oversized chips? Because it seems like yours have them sewn on for the world to see.
rick737
Another lost in space answer from Martin. The English language must be lost in it's translation into, well, English. Why can't you, Martin, admit you are basing your very weak argument on a first hand report from a notoriously poorly written news rag, from a half drunk, whose intention it is to build a case to stick Delta Airlines for a fat settlement. If this moron had had the manners to keep his voice down, we would be blogging about the color of the ski at sunset. Even in the land of the free, our constitution, ammendment 1 states we have the right to free speech when redressing the government. Free speech doesn't apply to every form of speech. I, personally, am glad that was cleared up by our supreme court way back in the early 1800's. If I own a business and a Charles DeGaul look alike enters my property and acts like a typical Parisian, I can throw him out, bodily if necessary, and the law is on my side. The same applies to an airline.
captainjman
I hadn't realized that Martin is a known idiot. My apologize for feeding his addiction to attention. but since he will read this post and I have decided to drop it all together, let me answer with this... I have had several people removed from an aircraft, I never said I did it myself. You can read about one of those instances in the phoenix times when the passenger got tazered in the face. So please, act out because I really would like you to be the next idiot with permanent scars to his face and 100k volts of being proven wrong running through your inferior cerebral cortex. See, I don't get my hands dirty, my FA's tell me a schmuck is on board and I call the police and problem is solved. No go bonkers trying to get my attention while I go do something more important than try to prove my INFERIORITY complex while attempting the opposite!
md69
Jason - in your own words "i'll kick you off in an instant". Not "I'll have you removed". The inference there is that you'll do the kicking. If, however, you'd said, "I will call the police and have you removed", then I'd co-operate fully. Just because I don't have 4 stripes doesn't mean my brain is any less superior than yours. I don't have an inferiority complex. You just have a chip on your shoulder.

As has been stated several times here: WE DO NOT HAVE THE FULL FACTS. THEREFORE NOBODY IS QUALIFIED TO MAKE ANYTHING OTHER THAN AN EDUCATED GUESS AS TO WHAT REALLY HAPPENED. AND IF I WANT TO SAY THE WORD "FUCK" TO A PERSON SITTING NEXT TO ME ON AN AIRCRAFT, I WILL. IF IT ISN'T AIMED AT A MEMBER OF THE CABIN CREW, IT'S GOT FUCK ALL TO DO WITH ANYBODY BUT MYSELF AND THE PERSON WHO I'M TALKING TO. What part of that do you have trouble understanding?
rick737
Martin, the fact that you don't care if there are other people within earshot that can hear you, and may be offended or concerned by the use of profanity. I thought we Americans had a loss of manners and respect for others, but we must have learned it from Europeans. So, you might say there is no part it this situation I don't comprehend, I just don't understand how anyone could be so rude and crude.
md69
Rick, I've said it once, and I'll say it again. A private conversation is just that: private. If any passengers had heard the f-word being said, and had any objections, they could have raised it with the FA who could have asked the passenger concerned to mind his language. If, at that stage, the passenger became abusive then by all means remove him from the aircraft.

But by the same token, the pilot & co-pilot of the SWA flight that talked about gay FAs should also be removed from their positions. I'm sorry, but rank has no priviliges. What's sauce for the goose is also sauce for the gander. In this case its worse for those at the sharp end, as their comments have been broadcast for the world to hear. They have absolutely no defence at all. Their conversations are held on ATC tapes which can be requested by the FAA. No such info can be requested from the FA about the passenger.

Crude? Hardly. If, for example, I said that I wanted to f-word your spouse, or a female FA, then that could be considered as crude. But if I were to say "Why the f-word were we delayed?" then that isn't crude, nor rude. Not in my book, anyway.

Is there anybody on this thread who can state 100%, without contradiction, that they have never used any kind of profanity, or politically correct statement, in or out of public earshot? I'm guessing that there isn't. Therefore any comments that can and have been used in this thread are null and void.

QED.
rick737
Martin, the fact that you don't care says it all. I'm done with this argument.
md69
Rick - the fact that you can't disagree with anything that I put means you lost.
captainjman
Martin - you care who won and lost? Who cares. There is no winning or losing. Most intelligent people discuss issues, you want to win at all costs. to be clear, when I say I am going to kick you off my plane, I mean Im going to call the police. ANd when they ask me if I want to press charges I will... as I have in the past. Its not a chip on my shoulder its four stripes and I earned it by using good judgement. And you are nothing more than an inconvenient combinations of organic compounds since you obviously are a waste of time. I can only imagine you sitting in your moms basement in underwear eating mayonaise by the spoon. Well, my wife is back from work so I'm going to get ...... well, something Im guessing you only get by paying for, so I will talk to you later.. oh wait, no I wont! LOL
captainjman
I find you so amusing - like a freak at the traveling carnival. Not a chip on my shoulder, its 4 stripes, and proud of it. If you want to argue semantics about my wording before saying " I will kick you off my plane" you said youd kick my ass. I said it meant Id call the police.... but you thought that wakes you wise. In your case, come up to the cockpit and ask if I am your captain, and if I am, go in back and start swearing and just for you, I will personally remove you from my plane. And if you even think of striking me I will let you personally experience what this link talks about http://www.justice.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title9/crm01411.htm
md69
You obviously do have a chip on your 4 stripes. I'll say it again, if I'm having a PRIVATE conversation, not talking to ANYBODY to do with the airline, then's it's NOBODY's business. Not yours, not the F/A's, not even the CEO of the airline.

And typical of people in the "Land of the Free" - can't defend themselves so they have to call law-enforcement officers in. Fuck, you wouldn't last 5 minutes over here.

As for sitting in my mum's (note correct spelling) basement - well seeing as my mother has been dead for 15 years, that's another reason for me to give you a good kicking. The fact that you have to resort to bringing my family into it means you're a total low life who realises that he has no intelligent comeback.
captainjman
Martin - it was assumed you were referring to being a nuisance. Swearing out loud and at crew. I don't care if you swear in a private conversation as long as you are considerate enough to stop if asked to because it was offending others. ( is small children within earshot). Freedom of speech is not universal, that is constitutional and case law fact. You can however say anything you want in a private convo. And if you stop you are fine. It's refusal to do as asked by a flight crew member that is the problem. The few times I didn't back my flight attendant up and kick a passenger off things got much much worse in flight. That's not a chip - that's experience - period
md69
Jason - assume makes an ass out of "u" and "me" (although just you in this case). If you read back through all my posts on here, I've maintained throughout that, from the press report, the F/A was not involved in the conversation. It was just two guys, sat next to each other, having a private chat. They could have been talking about a baseball game, the queues on the motorway on the drive to the airport - anything. But they were NOT (allegedly) engaging conversation with the F/A. That, in my book, means that the F/A has no right to get involved.

Yes, if there were children within earshot, I'd not use language like that. Working as I do in a shop where children aged 16 & under are freqeunt visitors, I know that the language I use out of their earshot is not the same as I'd use within.

And again, back up the thread, I've said that if I was asked to do something, or to stop doing something, by a person in authority, then I'd do it.

Please - if you want to reply to this, before you type it out, read what I've already put to see if the comments you want to make have already been answered.
captainjman
Quilty - I skipped through it and read a few posts while scrolling. Then saw yours that did not clarify the situation. Other posts led me to beleive pax was baligerant and swearing, which in those cases I would kick them off

I will call it a draw - enough said
md69
Thank you Jason - a fair result.

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