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New Jersey Sues Gas Stations Accused Of Knowingly Selling Leaded AvGas

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Motorists Thought They Were Filling Up With Unleaded Gasoline, Attorney For Stations Says They Were Not Aware (www.aero-news.net) さらに...

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davysims
David Sims 12
The obvious defense, why would anyone knowingly replace their product with something that costs twice as much yet continue to sell it for less?
HunterTS4
Ya.......cuz' nobody has done that in America since Franc Lucas
macoombi
Because lead in the gas coats oxygen sensors and the cats. Probably one tank full isn't enough to do damage though but who knows.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 7
I think Sims is saying why would you knowingly sell a more expensive product for half the price...
davysims
Exactly. Kind defeats the allegation that this was done on purpose.
btweston
btweston 2
I think you're supposed to read things before you comment on them.
hiflier32
ric lang 6
OK!!! How come no one I know in Jersey didn.t call me? I would have flown there and filled up the mains and tips with that $3.50/gallon gas.
mpradel
Yeah, i know quite a few guys who would gladly tanker fuel away from undiscerning motorists at that price!
Moviela
This goes on all the time. A surplus in one area is sold as a different product in another area. Most fuel is kept as a raw product and blended at the time of delivery at the filling rack.

It is unusual that 100LL Avgas was being stored and had the additives in it. The owner probably had a miscue from an FBO and wound up with too much stock. They probably gave it away at a cheap price to be rid of it. It might also have been "old gas" that would have cost money to re-process, so they sold it as motor fuel.

I doubt a tankful of low lead would cause much harm to o2 sensors or a cat.

Usually the crooks in New Jersey specialize in selling gas well below the published octane rating (is any consumer capable of measuring it?), or running pumps that cheat 4~8% on delivery, or in summer dropping 90 degree product in the tank, knowing the pumps are set for 60 degree gas. This gives them a 3% expansion you pay for but don't get.
eddyandy
eddyandy 2
Fuel is stored underground and does not reach outdoor temperatures. More like 55 degrees.
Moviela
In most refineries fuel is stored in above ground tanks. It is delivered by gravity from overhead into tanker trucks. Tanker trucks are not insulated and the fuel quickly takes on the ambient temperature.

At the gas station the tanks are well insulated and buried underground. The fuel remains at nearly the same temperature it was when dropped into the tank.

The government has declared 60 degrees as the standard for measuring the gas sold. The meters in the pump are not compensated for temperature.
mhlansdell00
You're pretty much on the money, Ric. Due to temperature expansion and contraction weights and measures and the refiners have agreed on 60º for a constant inventory temperature. I had a chart for each of my semi-trailers from the manufacturer and another from the state where required. Even road asphalt at 400ºF, a petroleum product was subject to the same criterion. Pump dispensers are calibrated then checked manually by the state.

The big point is if a product is mislabeled at the terminal or refinery there is no way to know if gasoline is leaded, unleaded, one octane or another. It passes out of site form truck to storage tank with only the paperwork to depend on for identification. This is a nuisance and harassing suite buy the state unless they come up with some conversational information. There is no advantage to the station owner or operator, but he has to respond to and defend the suite with legal representation. Very costly
skylab72
skylab72 1
"checked manually by the state" unless you live in Texas where we have 12 inspectors for thousands of gas stations... we get more 'milage' out of vigilantly checks reported to local TV stations for consumer awareness pieces. Oh I forgot petro-business here owns...
mhlansdell00
We're not talking about Texas. We're talking about a specific law suit in New Jersey. By the way, a freight bill and short bill of lading is no different in Texas than it is in any other state. The fact is the gas station owner doesn't ever see the product being delivered. If it's mislabeled in the delivery paperwork why would the people at the gas stations know they had avgas. If they didn't read the product description it's a different problem, but it can still be written off as a mistake without intent.
skylab72
skylab72 1
Good point, though I would suggest the petro-biz has watch-dogged this very plausible deniability into place with these kinds of slight-of-hand tricks anticipated, but you'll never prove it...
mhlansdell00
I'll go back to one of the original questions here. Why would any one sell very expensive avgas in place of auto fuel. That's an economic enigma. It's easy enough to get to the bottom of but I think the State pulled the trigger too quickly or maybe the news paper reporter got it wrong and it's only an investigation.
suz
suz 2
Ric Wernicke knows what he's talking about. Believe it or not, the station operators may not even have known.
Starman535
Folks, leaded av-gas not only fouls oxygen sensors, it also fouls catalytic converters, rendering them useless. It only takes one tankful to do that, hence the lawsuits. Would you really want to go back to burning leaded gas in cities? I think not, as the air is much cleaner now than it was in the 1960's and 1970's because of the conversion to no-lead. Because of this, I think Babis (below) is ranting about the wrong things.
mhlansdell00
We live in a place where anyone can sue anyone. A one sided and poorly written article is not a conviction only an indictment. Too bad no one will follow this up after the court action and the man in the black robe decides. After having been in the specialized petroleum transportation business for a few years, 50 in all, I am familiar enough with the bills of lading and invoices issued by the refineries and terminals to tell you if there is no evidence of a collusive agreement to ship and receive the avgas the gas station or convenience store would have no way of knowing what was being transferred to their tank(s). I know of some cases where 100 0ct avgas is used for automobile racing fuel, but there is no advantage to anyone to sell it as street motor gasoline.

I think the State looses this one, but the retail distributors have to defend themselves at who knows what cost., probably in excess of $10,000.
jet4ang
jet4ang 1
The car owners should've been surprised by the higher performance. Kinda like pumping racing fuel into your tank at half price.
bbabis
bbabis -1
This is total bunk! Only the empire of the EPA is upset due to their war on lead. As with most government empires, they are against anything we like or good for us. Lead is in gas for one reason. It increases octane and engine performance. Any motorist that was lucky enough to get some probably wondered why their car ran better. Maybe a smidgeon of life was taken off the Cat but that would be it. The EPA would like you to think the cars were running on lead bars and someone is now sure to die when in fact 100LL has much less lead than the old leaded mogas or racing fuel. $3.50/gal for $6/gal fuel was also a deal and nothing a gas station would knowingly do. Sadly, the EPA will probably demand that the station's tanks be scoured of every molecule of lead or replaced. This is in a state that is the land of toxic waste dumps. Clean up your backyard New Jersey before wasting money suing over a mistake that has run its coures. Don't expect that anyone not directly associated with aviation would know what "AVGAS" on a bill of lading stood for.
FIXNFLYIT
Minor corrections. 100LL (blue 100/115) has much less lead than the old 100 (green 100/130)avgas. It has way more lead than any auto gas ever had. Lead is used to increase octane, it however does not increase engine performance. Using a higher octane rated fuel than your engine requires does nothing except waste money. If an engine is properly tuned and only requires regular gas putting premium fuel in the tank will do nothing for performance. Higher octane fuel will withstand higher cylinder pressures before detonating making it necessary for higher performance engines, it its self does not increase performance, hardware changes do.
bbabis
bbabis 2
Thanks Tim. I'm sure you're right. My point is that a lot of cars, particularly the older ones, are driving around knocking because of the new octane claims on the ethanol fuel blends. You stop the knock, the engine performs better. You weren't with T.W. Smith Engines were you?
FIXNFLYIT
No relation to T.W.

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